Awaiting Feedback Why Rep Should Return: Our Posts Are Worth More Than a Like

I didn't realize I was arguing for anything. I'm just asking questions. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I'm essentially a neutral party on the issue since I want both Likes and Rep gone so I have no strong attachment to one or the other. You seem to think I'm entirely against the idea (of the change) when I'm not. You yourself admitted I was indifferent about the whole thing. I'm more or less just confused why one is considered worse when, in theory they would be the same. It simple curiosity on my part.

 

Negative feedback builds character, no one ever gets better if people keep telling them they're doing good or just don't tell them anything at all. Getting 6 dereps on a post is a bit excessive but getting one or two neg reps every now and then will let you know that maybe something you said rubbed someone the wrong way and you can learn from it. With likes it's either 'UR DOIN GOOD' or nothing at all. I had nothing but negative rep back in 2007 and I learned from it. Negativity is a part of life.[DOUBLEPOST=1375144376][/DOUBLEPOST]

You keep posting and generally taking the opposite point of view as us who are for the rep system, suggesting that we should just change the like system. You can say you're neutral all you want but you're here posting, and your posts are not in support of what we want but instead you come with questions as to why we should get what we're arguing for, so you're clearly going to be viewed as opposition if you're not supporting us.

And we've explained why we like one over the other. I did it in the post you quoted, it's not possible at the moment to even make the like system function exactly like the rep system, so why are you guys beating a dead horse? Or rather why are you beating a horse that was never alive in the first place?

 

What i'm arguing is the improvements you guys have commented on, and ways to address them without going down the rep system again, trying to compromise with additional features.

AndI didn't like rep when t was implemented, it was a sloppy system, easily exploited and abused. Fundementally these systemsare the same, which means the same pros and cons. Rep is even older that the like system and is effectively dead to every forum, even vBulletin is changing. If we're going by popularity, Facebook is still the most popular worldwide social network and their system is the most simple and easy to use, which is likely why it's being implemented everywhere these days, because it's popular and efficient. I don't enjoy facebook, but honestly their system of replying to status' is easy to do with like buttons and comments which is why likes are better.

 

see

There were actually several occasions where we wanted to completely disable the rep system because of all the complaints about negative rep. It became a little more tolerable once it was allowed to show who the user was giving the rep/derep, but still caused problems and drama to say the least.

 

THIS.

Without getting too touchy, the ability to give negative criticism directly to a person instead of liking a post that goes against them or is offensive is something this place desperately needs (posts/comments are effectively not the same since they hold no reward or penalty). Yes, it will be abused, but rather than not use that system because it will be abused, people who abuse it offensively should be punished and people who use it correctly should be able to use it. Any system will be abused, it's just a matter of the negative effects of each. With likes the negative effect is that negative criticism doesn't exist within the system itself, where with rep the negative is that users may be attacked by other members (also a possibility in likes).
The way I see it, rep has more pros than likes and less cons than likes.

 

...Arch... All of what you just said has been debated at length. All of it. I mean, did it just not change your mind, or...?

You should ask questions of some of the people against it, then. That would give a greater appearance of neutrality.

So we fix it. No system is perfect from the start. But likes are a downgrade; fixing them would take more time and effort.

Not really. They can be made to look the same, and their flaws may resemble each other, but they ultimately serve different purposes by the nature of their mechanics. People don't like when they would rep, and they don't rep when they would like.

So? Do we want to follow vB's lead? I thought that's why we switched.

No, that's why likes are simpler. That doesn't make them better. In fact, it makes them worse. This isn't Facebook. A lot of sites that use Facebook-like systems aren't Facebook. They use it because it's popular, not because it's good. Being popular doesn't automatically make it good. And besides, if you don't enjoy Facebook, why are you defending a system that resembles Facebook?

I just don't know if that would be enough. And it's still a matter of being too easy, too hands-off.

I mean

I could make the "Let's just get rid of likes and rep" thread

but I didn't think anyone would be down for that :L

Honestly, if there were problems with the old system, they're worse with this one. They're just much quieter, if anything. And I think they're partially exemplified in me. Why do I have 700 likes? I'm three months old!

 

I wish I could ask you to prove this... I know you can't, and not because you're unable, so I'll take your word for it.

Would allowing for moderation of it really be so bad? With the add-on suggested, couldn't you tie the report button to each rep? Heck, couldn't you just remove negative rep if it's really THAT problematic. The CP picture shows that the minimum has to be set. That said, you can make the minimum 0 instead of negative. Or make it something like negative one so it's virtually not as offensive.

I'm just spitballing here.

 

Features that are not currently available, though.

These systems are only fundamentally the same when you include the currently not possible possiblity of the implementations to the like system that Amaury and a few others brought up.

And we liked the rep system. We do not like the like system. If it is proven that more of us prefer the rep system, why not bring it back?

 

I realize this is a weird way of doing this but I'm going to post before I start typing my reply (because it will be lengthy) just so you all know it's comin'. I'm not saying halt all discussion, by all means continue, but be aware.

 

I'd be down.

So long as you throw Premium membership into that as well :v

But seriously, I was only asking questions one way over the other because, as it is obvious, most people in this topic are for the change. Asking a question no one in this topic would answer seems...pointless.

 

Thank darlin', just please don't let it end with "LOCKED~"

 

I think she knows by now that when she does that in our threads we throw tantrums that spill out into other threads

 

Dude

You & me?

We got a thing.

We're like

on the same wavelength & s██t.

Some day, man.

Some day.

Ehh y'know what, fair enough. I'd rather somebody fill out the opposing side than pile on a one-sided fight.

 

All you have to do, apparently, is click to see who repped a post. Similar to how polls work. We don't immediately see what the results are but that won't stop people from viewing them before making their decision. And ... Isn't derep more of voicing disapproval in a member than disagreement? I mean, if you really disagree with something, wouldn't you post - not take away from a user's reputation? And if you disapprove of a member, isn't that when you derep?

I thought that approaching an 'attacker' who is hurting someone was pretty personal and worth at least a visitor message.

I'm not sure how positive opinions are a bad thing, televised or not. Whereas negative opinions can be hurtful. Why do you guys crave negativity so much that you actually think here's an imbalance when you see nothing but a positive in something? What is being hurt by not telling people through a rating system that you disapprove of them?

If we fixed the current system, boom.

As RvR said as well, it did cause problems and there were times it got pretty bad. Even from before I was on staff, there were issues for me from a members standpoint. The dereps I got were NEVER constructive, it was always something cruel and unnecessary. It didn't help me grow as a member, it just hurt. I never reported them or anything because it was kind of a 'get used to it this is the internet' sort of thing and I was ashamed of feeling hurt by it.

I have no idea why people glorify the '07 days, but what it became for me was - join the mean kids or gtfo. That was 'growth'. Stop using smileys, stop being friendly, start being blunt and posting relevant memes / videos and picking on members and joining the shitstorms as an instigator and then it's like oh wow you're such a cool member rep rep rep. How is that making you a better person?

I would hope that if the system were brought back, we wouldn't let those kinds of things slip under a rug, thus they'd require heavier moderation.

I thought a big part of this was that you guys wanted negative reputation and that's a big thing for you.

--

I guess I just genuinely don't understand why people crave the negativity so badly. If someone is generally disliked amongst the forum I think they can tell - you guys are pretty darn vocal with that kind of stuff. You're not suddenly alerting them by dubbing them a 'bad member' via dereps, I think they know when their actions are disapproved of. If you're going to use the derep system legitimately, I don't see it being a huge deal to talk to someone you have an issue with. If they write something you disagree with, reply.

Someone was mentioning earlier that they felt that somehow likes took away from people posting. But you want positive rep AND negative rep? I definitely see the point you're making about an OP having 24802472 likes, but 2 posts or something, but now we get to derep someone instead of replying to let them know that whatever they did / said wasn't cool? What's wrong with requiring someone to go through a little bit more effort to make someone feel ****** [ or think about what they did whatever you guys think you're doing ]?

Why do you think you're making the community better by telling someone they're not good enough? i just don't understand, aaaaaah.

 

Why don't we just add more options?
Like
Dislike
This **** makes no sense
Who thought this was a good idea to post?
A god among men
1/10 back in my day trolling meant something

It's beautiful

 

Well sweetiebelle, it is. But I'm willing to compromise if it means limits, comments, and ease of viewing all of that in a profile area. I am. This doesn't say anything of anyone else, but yeah.[DOUBLEPOST=1375147342][/DOUBLEPOST]

..I have no idea what you just said. :'D

 

First: y'all need to post these threads on the days I'm off from work, you're making me read so much. P: I won't really be quoting anyone in here because that would take forever and I'm just trying to give some ~general information~ in here.

The first thing I'd like to clarify on is the import to Xenforo, I know some staff members have done there best to inform you all on what went there, but I am the one who did the import and, out of all I had to juggle during the import, I didn't quite update them on every step.

Efforts were made to import the reputation system and comments to Xenforo. We were, in fact, intending on utilizing the very add-on that was suggested in the OP. However, it simply wouldn't import correctly. I believe there were support issues, what with both the reputation add-on and the vBulletin 4 import being unofficial add-ons (though there is now an official vB4 importer in development, if anyone is curious--and before you ask, no, we cannot re-import).

I believe it was something on the add-on's end that messed up the import. We also made an attempt to import pins to the new add-on, but it failed--interestingly enough, both the reputation add-on and our current add-on for pins were made by the same developer.

I did make every effort I could to import them, comments and all, but it just didn't work out. So no, there is no way of getting them back. However, reputation points were converted into Likes. So, for example, if I had been positively repped four times, negatively repped twice, and then the import was done, my Like count would be at 2.

When we realized that reputation was impossible to import (without manually editing the database, which... doing that for the sheer volume of members we have would take days of work), Mark found the Post Ratings add-on he linked to. Because things were so hectic with the move, we decided to place it on the back burner. It's remained there because the add-on is paid and non-essential (though an interesting addition). I've always had in the back of my head to revisit it, especially recently, as I've been a member on several forums that utilize it, and I think it strikes a nice balance between Likes and reputation.


Now, moving onto our history with reputation.
When it was first implemented things were rather peaceful. However, when it was added as a requirement for Premium (you had to have some amount of reputation, I don't recall what exactly it was, and in any case it changed a few times), things got a little fuzzy. Despite the limits placed on reputation (you could only give it out so many times a day), users worked out systematic ways of bolstering their friends' reputations--even if they were already Premium. Why I could never explain to you, and we could hardly act on it (we couldn't exactly barge in and ask if what they gave was a "legitimate" rep, as if there was such a thing). Some staff members even participated in it.

Likewise, many members discovered that they could effectively shut out people from Premium--or at the very least, make them feel bad--with dereps. We implemented the policy that if anyone felt they were being abused via derep, they could talk to us and we would look into the case, often resulting in us deleting the negative derep. However, when things there got complicated--what qualifies as a "valid" derep), and the volume of derep removal requests became more trouble than it was worth--we (as in, the staff) pulled from the system altogether. We would no longer oversee dereps or take requests to remove them.

At that time we also removed the requirement of reputation for Premium (though that was not the only reason behind it).

I can't speak for the member-side of reputation (e.g. I felt bad when I was derepped but never reported it) because I was on staff both before and after reputation. However, I personally never put much stock into the system (which, again, I was on staff, so I didn't have to worry about it as a Premium requirement). Sure I liked to get positive reps now and then, and I certainly gave my fair few, but I think I only gave one, maybe two, negative reps in all the years the system was in place, so Likes are an equal trade to me.


Now, for the actual add-on.
Sorry to poop on the fun here but I could not, in good conscience, install that add-on. Not because of any personal feelings on reputation--I believe both the Like system and reputation system are flawed in their own ways, and I didn't use either all that much--but it's not being updated nor supported.

When Xenforo first released, all add-ons were posted as new threads in a forum, with the required files attached to the OP. At some point, they launched the Resource Manager, a system for organizing the add-ons, downloads, and the support for the add-on. There was no way to import all the existing add-ons from their threads, so developers were asked to relist their add-ons within the Resource Manager. The threads remain viewable and the attached files downloadable for archival purposes, and for anyone who would like to use the add-on if the developer did not relist it.

The fact that xfrocks has not relisted the add-on within the Resource Manager ( see his complete list of add-ons here) says to me that, for sure, he is no longer supporting the add-on, nor is it being updated. With Xenforo 1.2 on the horizon, which will require developers to update most every one of their add-ons, installing this would be choosing to remain on this version of Xenforo forever. Which, there is nothing wrong with our version of Xenforo, but if you want Cool Things (like a new editor, a responsive theme, post editor history, and whatever comes after 1.2), then it's not really an option.


But! I do appreciate the suggestion and how thought out and dedicated you all are to it. I am still fond of the Post Ratings add-on, I can research more on it, and get back to this thread with the details. It is still paid but we have some in our donation fund still (and I can always kick in)--but, by all means, you all are welcome to donate more if you are so inclined. ;)

 

...Welp, we done. Pack it up, kids.

TUNE IN NEXT TIME FOR THE "LET'S JUST GET RID OF ALL THAT S██T AND CALL IT A DAY" THREAD :L

sry 4 teh spam

 

MISTY YOU PARTY POOPER I HATE YOU FOR RUINING THE FUN :<

In all seriousness though, I would like to thank you for all the typing you did to come in and clarify exactly what was going on and what could be done. As big as a bummer that it is to see this put on the back burner, I personally appreciate the actual discussion and not instant lock, and I'm sure the rest of the members do to :3

 

I swear I found it in a different resource editor... Oh well- maybe, just maybe, you guys could message xfrocks and get some concrete facts?

I don't mind the post ratings system, but it doesn't seem like muuuuch of a difference. If you could find a reputation system as well and present all three to the member council once tested, I feel that'd be the way to go. My thing is here... it's clear there's a majority vote wanting this, and a lot of passion and work was put forth into trying to make this happen- so much so that we wanted it to be as easy for you guys to integrate as possible.

I just don't want to see it fall to the way side when I feel there's more that we can do! :)

That said, looks like we're done in this thread. Please consider my suggestion for presenting a couple of options though, okay? :'D