Kingdom Hearts II Was the Organization Evil?

Discussion in 'Kingdom Hearts HD II.5 ReMIX' started by PyroLover, Nov 4, 2008.


Evil or Misunderstood?

  1. EVIL

    11 vote(s)
  2. Misunderstood

    37 vote(s)
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  1. PyroLover Moogle Assistant

    Oct 26, 2008
    ... Behind you. ._.
    This is the question I've been wondering for quite a while. Was the Organizatin truly evil, as Sora thought? Or was he just too... Well, blind, I suppose, to notice how non-evil (o_O?) they really were?

    Debate~! <3
  2. Daenerys Targaryen ok

    Apr 4, 2007
    Um, I think this might be the wrong section;KHII?

    "/ oh well.

    I always thought that too.All they wanted was a heart.I'd probably be the same way.

    I'd want to crush everything to get a heart.
    They weren't very good to Roxas I suppose.

    But then again they had no feelings,I think they thought they were good.Just trying to help themselves.But, they put the worlds out of place and in ruin, the heartless were running free.
    It's a very hard subject hmm.D:
  3. PyroLover Moogle Assistant

    Oct 26, 2008
    ... Behind you. ._.
    Oh, my. I feel like an idiot now. -_-


    Yes, I agree with that. How they were just wanting to have feelings and hearts and such. <3

    I think that. Well, the Organization is evil depending on how you view what "evil" really is. For example; what IS evil? Just an absence of good? Or is it a series of events that show you in an evil light? =]
  4. Repliku Chaser

    I'll move this to KH2 so it can be debated out there.
  5. water mage Kingdom Keeper

    Feb 4, 2008
    My own world free to do as I wish
    I don't view Organization XIII to be evil for they felt just in their mind knowing collecting hearts was the only way to become complete. Those that went against them were considered the adversary or the obstacles to keep them from obtaining their goal. Now most of the members were cruel beyond belief, where as others like Axel, Demyx, and Roxas did act like they had a heart and had strong feelings depending on the circumstance.

    On the other hand, Sora saw them as a threat and viewed them as evil because they did go to the other worlds and were seeking for others that would become heartless and strong characters that would become nobodies from the heartless. It all depends on what side you were on and what you believed in what is just and what is wrong?
  6. Sonic the Hedgehog The Blue dude is back!!

    Not really to me,they just wanted to be whole,but they did take countless hearts,and gave em to Kingdom Hearts,that giant heart shaped pile of crap.I'm not too sure if they were or not.
  7. LilRice King's Apprentice

    Mar 11, 2008
    Hanging out at the Keyblade Graveyard O.o
    I don't think they were evil at all they were just nobodies looking for emotions so that they could be somebodys.
  8. {feel.the.wrath} Hollow Bastion Committee

    Jan 19, 2008
    4 am forever.
    I never thought of them as truly evil. They just are in search of a heart, and to that end will do anything to get it. And, because they have no feelings, supposedly, they can't feel what's right or wrong, so they really can't tell whether what they are doing is right or wrong. With that said, I find it a little hard to call them actually evil.

    That's just my opinion, anyway.
  9. 8AxelVIII Merlin's Housekeeper

    Aug 18, 2008
    I think they both were and weren't. They just wanted to have a heart and be hole, like everyone said .
    But they was willing to do anything to get there, even kill. So therefore I must say that they were evil, but with a good reason.
  10. Scott Pilgrim Banned

    Aug 11, 2008
    No they were not. They had a good cause, but they were doing it for the wrong reasons. All they wanted to do was to be wole again. They wanted to have hearts. Xemnas, towars the end, realized the heart was what made you weak and became evil. Enough said.
  11. Firefly Hollow Bastion Committee

    Oct 7, 2008
    The grey area
    Everyone in the Organization is different, so some are worse than others. Demyx wasn't very bad, as he didn't harm or insult anyone, but Xaldin was nasty and manipulative to Beast, and his actions could be viewed as evil.

    The Organization's motive was good, they wanted hearts so they could have emotions and be proper people. Their means, however, were terrible. They manipulated people, allowed chaos and acted very heartless. They might have wanted hearts, but most of them weren't acting that way. They were bitter, insulting and unfriendly. They fought Sora, caused trouble with other's hearts... Why did they choose such a path? Perhaps if they had been good, not menacing and uncaring, they would have succeded in their goal.

    I don't think the nobodys are capable of being evil, because I find that to be about personality as well as based on actions. But they weren't good people either. They were simply... heartless.
  12. PyroLover Moogle Assistant

    Oct 26, 2008
    ... Behind you. ._.
    Firefly151 brought up an interesting point for me.

    If they didn't have emotions, could they actually be evil? Could someones actions make them evil, or do they have to be evil on the inside, too? Unless they could be evil because of the fake emotions they had, but then, wouldn't that make the "evil" acts they committed fake?

    However, the fact that the acts they attributed were very real sort of dims that down, so I can't really be sure.
  13. Finale Wannabe Nobody

    Feb 3, 2007
    The leader was...but the others might of not been, the leader wanted to destroy the other worlds and make a world where nobodies with their hearts to live in...however the others like Saix wanted a heart. so



    probably didn't care.
  14. P E A N U T ~*~Never Surrender~*~

    Apr 25, 2008
    I don't believe that they were evil. I believe that they were misunderstood, confused, shells. They did what they had to do to recover their hearts. Their actions may have been evil, but their hearts...well, since they didn't have hearts, then I don't think they can be evil.
  15. Skylight_Defect Hollow Bastion Committee

    Aug 16, 2008
    The organization wasn't evil, they just wanted to be whole D':
  16. Virtuoso Gummi Ship Junkie

    Aug 25, 2008
    the magical land of wonderland
    Well yeah, you could say they are not evil, but the methods they used to obtain their hearts were considered evil. They would use heartless to wreak havoc in the worlds, which they expected Sora to destroy them, and they didn't really care if some members took the fall(In other words, died) and if innocent people were hurt since they, of course, have no hearts. So I guess you could say that they weren't evil but they used evil and selfish(meaning only for the organization's benefits and nobody elses) methods to reach their goal.
  17. Nova We left a scar size extra-large.

    Jul 11, 2008
    *Somewhere In The Stratosphere ♥
    I wouldn't say evil necesarily... just misunderstood.
  18. Repliku Chaser

    I would not call the Organization evil. Really, to me, evil is a word that is negotiable as to what it means and we can all have different views on it. Some people will say it is evil for a starving kid to steal a candy bar while others will sympathize and say it is wrong but there are circumstances that merit it. So really, I try to not use the word 'evil' to describe even some of the most heinous figures of our time.

    Instead, I judge people more on 'actions' they do. i.e. The Organization had a purpose. Their intentions were to get their own Hearts back since they were stuck in a state between essentially life and non-existence. They were missing a whole aspect of themselves which made existing rather banal and meaningless. In essence they were beings frozen in time and they were the result of the Heartless being unleashed on worlds of living people, where they consumed Hearts and thus what remained would become Nobodies elsewhere.

    I don't even think Xehanort and the top 6 members of the Organization knew exactly what would happen to them should they give in to Darkness. The only one known to retain any 'sentience' after changing to a Heartless seems to be Xehanort, if Axel's words can be taken as true. The others however, who all were strong enough of spirit, did manage to have intact Nobodies, along with him, and memories of their former lives. This change may have been rather difficult on them and we also must wonder exactly why these members took the plunge into Darkness in the first place with Xehanort. Also, why did they insist on studying and going past the point of no return when Ansem had ordered the experiments to be stopped. These are mysteries hopefully that we will get some answers to in BBS and 358/2 Days.

    As for the other members below, they can be considered innocent of the initial 'crime' that placed the top members who were apprentices of Ansem the Wise as traitors and threats to all life as the Heartless were unleashed not just on one world, but through interspace as KH likes to call the space between worlds. It doesn't mean they did not perhaps do things wrong or right prior to joining the Organization and prior to becoming Nobodies.

    To be a Nobody, whether from the Org direct or one of the lesser ones, is a state to well...think on how horrible it might be. Imagine being a husk, a body that is not your own but is a memory of your own former body, powers that you probably did not possess prior, but also a lack of emotional depth and feeling. It is somewhat akin to vampires, which is about the closest thing I could relate it to. They are changed and though responsible for their actions still, their judgments would also be altered from a normal person's.

    Being a Nobody, they would be as rational or mind thinking as they could be. They also would not have emotions to really 'care' about what they do to others. They merely wanted their Hearts back to be complete and I'm sure there was some other agenda there, but as of yet we don't know it. It is not the fact that they wanted their Hearts, or some Hearts anyway because they might not find their 'old ones', back which makes them bad people. It's not really the fact that some exhibited very little conscience or sympathy towards others that would make them conceivably bad or evil as some would say, because the state of being is what it is. It's not actions. They are as they are.

    What made the Organization destructive and harmful to others was their actual actions in order to get Hearts. They harmed worlds, controlled Heartless and manipulated them, they even made more Nobodies with Heartless as they sent them to worlds, adding to their own numbers because they believed in the end, they would win. They also, with this thought in mind, had been allowing Heartless to make more of themselves. They used other beings such as corrupting a dragon and a dark spirit within a chest, and other Heartless that were not so before as strong aids to get Sora to destroy them and thus send their Hearts to the faux Kingdom Hearts created in TWTNW. Not only did Hearts not make it to the -real- Kingdom Hearts, but they were going to be used by the Organization for their scheme which may or may not have worked, but destroyed a lot of lives. They attempted to corrupt Beast, used Sora throughout, and some initially caused the problem of the Nobodies' existence in the first place and yet the leader who motivated the Heartless was also the leader for the Organization.

    To me, I would not call them 'evil', but I would say that their quest brought about actions that required them to be stopped because of how they were pushing to force others to change and they certainly put a great burden on life to get what they desired. They would of course feel little if any guilt over such a thing, save for Roxas and later on, Axel. Demyx also didn't ever seem to fit in the scheme of things and in the novels he was even ridiculed for being kind of a bumbler. Because they had no conscience over quite a few things, it's no question also that Marluxia would attempt to betray the Organization because he seemed to not mind his actual condition as it gave him more power. Someone had to try the power ploy and not go along with what Xemnas wanted because the younger members certainly did not spawn the situation in the first place and of course, the lure of being in a new powerful body to some and having no emotions in the way, it's ideal for a corrupt leader to come about.

    So though I do not consider the Organization to be evil, I do consider their actions to be destructive enough to merit that others would have to step up and stop them. They did never make their intentions fully clear which if they had, the heroes might have been able to have more sympathy to them. Only Riku really seemed to know things and did sympathize with the plight of Namine and Axel, as he came to understand their personalities and identities were unique, as was Roxas's and he questioned his own actions then of whether it was right or wrong to force Roxas back with Sora, though he had to or Sora would never have awakened. In the end, it came down to a call for survival of Nobodies versus the original people who were there prior to the Nobodies and Heartless. Is it right for the Nobodies to continue existence and make more, and seek their Hearts or to let nature do its thing to compensate for their condition?

    People around here say they just were after their Hearts and it is true. They also slam on Sora and his allies for being 'closed minded' and prejudiced to Nobodies, but if you study the game in earnest, you'd see that Sora did not gain information on the Nobodies that we would see in cutscenes. It just didn't happen, so without Nobodies actually being willing to communicate with him or any of the heroes for that matter, he was at a loss and could only go in one direction. Also, Nomura pointed out that if a Heart is freed from a Heartless, it would return to Kingdom Hearts. If under normal circumstances, nature had been able to work, and Sora had freed Hearts, when a Nobody would perish or choose to give up its existence, that Nobody would return to his full life, with a Heart again. If a Nobody died however and the Heart was not freed from a Heartless, that Nobody simply would cease to exist. Now, Nomura states this but I must wonder if the Nobodies of the Organization -knew- this, just as much as I know Sora and his friends knew little about the Organization. So, if they did not, their mission was a desperate one to survive. If they did, they were out to make themselves into something more.

    In any event, I think it came down to a battle of survival of Nobodies and their personalities and the desire to become whole... VS... the people who were in danger from Heartless and those who were changed to Heartless that they would never become whole again, because the Nobodies wanted to preserve their own integrity. Namine herself did not really want to go back to Kairi until she was resigned that it was the right thing to do or she and Kairi might always be incomplete. What would have happened to Kairi if Namine had become whole by Xemnas's idea? Let alone what would have happened to others who were in danger and did not have Kairi or Sora's predicament is a good question. I blathered on here but I guess the point comes down to I consider this more an issue of survival that had no choice but to be fought because of how the Organization played its hands. It's a debate whether they thought they -had to- or not but safe to say probably at least some of them did feel that way strongly. I don't consider Sora to be wrong in what he did, but I do not feel the Org was entirely without purpose either in their plight. I went into detail with this because I know someone will tell me 'well you don't think they were wrong or evil so that means Sora isn't justified' suddenly so it had to be clear. ^_^
  19. Ice_Keyblade Kingdom Keeper

    Oct 1, 2008
    You stalker!
    Wow. That explanation mostly said it. i just think that they don't know that they were evil because they were nobody's, and they were just following the first apprentice of ansem the wise(forgot his name).
  20. Phantom Sora Destiny Islands Resident

    Oct 29, 2008
    Twilight Town
    Actually, DragonHead7580 the plural for Nobody is Nobodies.
    But, I wouldn't say that the Organization was evil, first of all, they cannot
    feel. Though they do live in darkness they didn't have a choice.
    Someone with a really strong heart lost their heart and that Nobody
    was created. They aren't really evil... except for Xemnas.
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