SJW Feminazi Tumblrina Land™

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by Patman, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. Patman Bof

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    Apparently Misty would rather have this be its own thread so ... here I go.

    I' m a humanist as well. Which makes me both a feminist and a MRA, just ... not an active one.
    Can' t help noticing the MRA and gamergaters have raised an awful lot of devastating points lately. They' re just as likely to give in to cat fights as feminists though. And I wish they could use all that energy to criticize medias at large, we sure could use it.

    Precisely. Privileged is synonymous with "non-discriminated", and I sure as hell don' t see how that' s a problem.

    I' m all for equality, but I hate censorship with a passion. And a lot of these people are really snowflake censors. Even the "good" ones can be guilty of that every now and then. Misty, I' m looking at you right now. Being okay with nudity as long as it stays in your room is the very definition of puritanical. I assume the reason you made no attempt whatsoever at demonstrating why that shirt was sexist was that, at some point, you realized you couldn' t. At least I hope so. Don' t worry, I know your heart is in the right place. And you don' t flee actual dialogues, that will always earn you cookie points in my book. I just needed something concrete to illustrate my case and that' s what popped to mind.

    Actually, and that' s the scary thing, it does work. I would just laugh it out if they just stayed in their tumblr bubble, but they don' t. I read the Huffington Post daily, it' s infested with click bait tumblrina diarrhea. This isn' t just about the video games I love, this isn' t just about the comics I love, when they fuck with my country and keep painting the Charlie Hebdo staff as racists/islamophobes, over and over and over again, I lose my shit.

    What' s even worse is that the French Huff Puff doesn' t dare to print those articles, nor did it dare posting their Chapel Hill shooting article without editing it a bit first. Make no mistake, they are deliberately dishonest, this isn' t an accident. When I bitched and moaned about the Faux News of the world in the Chapel Hill shooting thread this is exactly what I had in mind. Fox is easily the worst offender, but the others aren' t that much better.

    But wait, it doesn' t stop there either ! Just look at what' s happening in American universities right now. Or the kind of laws that have been passed in Britain and Sweden lately. Those people do have an impact. They don' t have nearly as much of an impact in France, THANK GOD !!! But they sure are trying.

     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
  2. Cloud3514 Kingdom Keeper

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    The dictionary definition of humanism: "a system of values and beliefs that is based on the idea that people are basically good and that problems can be solved using reason instead of religion"

    The dictionary definition of feminism: "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities"

    So I immediately have a point of contention here. It's a popular anti-feminist thing to go "I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist" as if feminism is somehow exclusionary. Problem is that "humanism" already describes a spiritual philosophy. "Egalitarianism" might technically be a better descriptor, but that's a whole spectrum of things that, among women's rights, includes gay rights, transgender rights, minority rights, religious rights and so on and so forth.

    The knee-jerk reaction in anti-feminists to spout out that stupidity is the same one that lead to MRAs attacking the YesAllWomen tag on Twitter with NotAllMen as if feminists accused every man of being sexist... which is absurd.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2015
  3. Patman Bof

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    Oh sure, one doesn' t necessarily entail the other, it just does for me. Sorry for the confusion. I' m not allergic to the feminist label as you just defined it, it totally applies to me. I just don' t agree with every feminist out there. And these days the number of self labeled feminists I agree with is pretty scarce.
     
  4. Cloud3514 Kingdom Keeper

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    There is a WIDE spectrum of stupid on the Internet. Radical feminists, who are technically NOT feminists by the definition of feminism, tend to be absolutely ****ing insane. I've literally seen radfems claim that women don't need men to reproduce and children can be conceived between two women. I wish I was kidding.

    Things like Tumblr have made these nutcases more visible, but at the same time, Tumblr also gives a voice to teenagers who think they are "transethnic" because they like k-pop. My point is, if you see someone ranting about how evil men are and that the world's problems are all caused by men, remember, they are not just not representative of feminism, but, by the definition of feminism, not feminists at all.
     
  5. Patman Bof

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    Exactly, they' re pretend feminists. Just like the pretend leftists mentioned in the video I posted.
     
  6. ♥♦♣♠Luxord♥♦♣♠ Chaser

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    Doesn't really make sense to me while equality in both sexes would be called feminism.
     
  7. Patman Bof

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    Semantically speaking, yeah, it is a confusing choice. But hey, as long as we' re clear on what we mean by that any arbitrary choice will do.
     
  8. Cloud3514 Kingdom Keeper

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    Its for the exact same reason why the 60s civil rights movement focused on black citizens. Men have all of the rights and, while we are affected by sexism, it generally comes from the same patriarchal beliefs that women are affected by. It made more sense when the term was coined due to there being far more inequality, but women are still far more affected by sexism than men, even today.
     
  9. libregkd -

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  10. Misty gimme kiss

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    Regarding the feminist or humanist debate, I think @Cloud3514 has made some great points on the subject. I'm always somewhat wary of those who are uncomfortable with the feminist label, though it's not always their fault -- as it often stems from a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of feminist that person has. I've quoted this article more than once on this forum before, but this to me is a great explanation of why the term 'feminism' is still important:
    (Source)
    To demand that feminism rebrand itself as 'humanism' obfuscates its message and purpose; it ignores the long history it has of women fighting for the rights of women. Feminism is not limited to helping only women, as patriarchy hurts men, too, and modern feminism includes battling racism, classism, the gender binary, etc. Every feminism is a humanist; feminism is an egalitarian movement. Demanding that women be placed above men isn't feminism at all, and I urge people to not view those who insist on those radical and fringe beliefs as representative of the majority of feminists. That's the same as believing Al-Qaeda or ISIS represent all Muslims. And it's not always people's fault, as the mainstream American media misrepresents groups of people this way, in some cases I'd argue intentionally. Misrepresenting feminism as what those radical and fringe 'feminists' believe enables you to bypass and ignore having to actually deal with what problems feminism actually fights against.

    The shirt argument is sort of anterior to this thread and not one I really want to dig up again, mostly because it was so long ago. I don't remember exactly what I did or didn't say in the thread, but my objections to the shirt are largely that it's inappropriate for the workplace nor where the guy wore it (if a woman had shown up dressed as one of the women featured on the shirt, I cannot imagine that would be considered appropriate) and, far more importantly, that it treated women and women's bodies as decoration for the male gaze. As I understand it, and as @libregkd covered, the guy in question did genuinely apologize for the shirt.

    Back on-topic, though, tumblr definitely has a problematic call-out culture that dominates a lot of social justice circles. It's one that I do not, and to my knowledge have never, supported. It's especially unfortunate because tumblr is, at heart, a blogging platform filled primarily with teenagers. I've seen young teens called out for saying something problematic and sent strings of hateful, accusatory messages in response to what may have been a personal, private vent post. To a degree, I think it's important to let people know when they have said something offensive, because it often stems from a place of ignorance -- and the only cure to that is to politely inform. As an example, I'm white, and while I do try my best to stay in my lane, I also acknowledge that I have been raised with white privilege and may have racist tendencies. Should I post anything racist, I would absolutely want one of my followers to inform me, so that I can apologize for it and remove whatever content. That's really the ideal exchange. When hate messages and the like become involved, that is an unfortunate problem. But once again, we should not allow ourselves to think that that is mainstream tumblr or that all social justice bloggers, or more extremely, all tumblr users, exercise that behavior.
     
  11. Patman Bof

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    The problem is that, as with religion, the moderates are used as a cover of respectability by the extremists. This hijacking does happen and it does have consequences.

    It' s the sexist label that wasn' t sitting well with me, things are a little more complicated than that. I get the feeling some people watched the guy cry gleefully.

    When you then moved to "inappropriate", given the context and American culture, I could accept that. That thing Emma Watson said about men feeling more and more like targets ? I guarantee you she' s spot on about that.

    See, this is what confuses me. The fact that you paint yourself as a racist. I mean there might be a bit of truth to that, idk, but I have a hunch this might just be self-flogging. I don' t do that. I' m secure in the fact that I' m definitely not a racist, good luck trying to convince me otherwise using dubious quotes of mine, which I' m sure could be done. I' ve had discussions on that topic with a Vietnamese friend, he told me himself he knows I' m not like that. The French are given flack all the time by Americans, haha coward surrender monkeys ! And the French sure give as much flack back to Americans. You think I find the coward stereotype funny ? I don' t. None of this is necessarily racist, but have the same attitude with a minority and you' re in for a high horse parade.

    That whole Charlie Hebdo thing has been a real eye opener for me, on many levels. Self flogging is definitely a thing in the left, so are bad alliances.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  12. libregkd -

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  13. Patman Bof

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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  14. Menos Grande Kingdom Keeper

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    Sorry, but every time I heard someone complaining about Feminazi/I am not racist I just want to say racist stuff, it reminds me of one South Park episode:
    By fear of being called racist/sexist you penalize the victim gaining the new ability of being a jerk and excused to do so.
    I think is very important that we are now aware of how the society is unequal, sure it makes men feel like they are walking with the tip of their toes, but is better than what it was before that the woman would have all the fear/responsability.
    When you meet a new women you may be uneasy that something might come out sexist/rapist, and in the days of yore you could say anything without thinking and SHE would be uncomfortable and with fear of being rapped. Now days the women still fear for their safety, or feels uncomfortable when man says something stupid , only that today both of them have to control/fear and that is more equal, even if you think it sucks.. eventually being nice will come out more easy (it gets better!).
    About the legendary "Feminazi" I don't belive it exists, what exists in reality is that every person who is a feminist (and some that are not) have their own definition of what is being "Feminist", if some women goes too far I doesn't mean that they are evil, is just means that like man they are prone to make mistakes (we are equal after all, this just proves it).
    But I would not blame them, because I don't know all the problems that they had all their lives to fear man in such a extent that they preffer not to live with us, because unfortunetly we are their "natural predator", I never felt fear of any women to hurt me because I am a man, or because what I wear, the opposite isn't true, I don't know what living in fear might do to them, so I get sad, but respect them and their option of trying to live without us.
    ----
    That being said, I think all the movements have to be extreme, If they are not constantly reminding us we might just say" Don't know why you are complaining, sure you are paid a bit less, but at least you are not stoned to death like some places do". The thing is a person can't be extremist, You can't live like this personaly because you start to mix how bad things really are in comparison with other things "Surely what I fight for is the most important thing in the whole world" , you become stressed by little things and maybe become unable to live in society (like the the feminists that don't like man), one thing should be the movement, another your life, living in fear is good for no one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  15. Patman Bof

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    Listen and believe.
     
  16. Misty gimme kiss

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    I mean, for starters a lot of people object to the term because it co-opts Nazism which is already used far too often and incorrectly in people's vernacular (see 'grammar Nazi', etc.). Say what you will about radical feminism, but I don't know of any form of it that can be linked to mass genocide of millions of people. Unless you count "kill all men" types, but I've never actually met or seen anyone like that.

    And then there's the issue of it painting a group (feminists) by the worst and most extreme fringe examples of it (so called 'feminazi'). It's often bandied about to shame women for speaking out and being assertive. It's used to discredit the movement.
    http://lipmag.com/opinion/why-i-hate-the-term-feminazi/
    You claim to hate censorship and yet you still seem to throw the term around when, in my experience, it has only ever been used to censor the beliefs of feminists -- to shut down and ignore any dialogues they try to open up.
     
  17. Patman Bof

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    What about the ones that speak of keeping males in cage for reproduction purposes only, doesn' t that land them in the nazi area ?
    Personally I' d rather call them pretend feminists, as I already have, or misandrysts since that would be spot on, but the word feminazi seems to be pretty well understood in the US (yup, it exists in French as well, at least colloquially). I was just going with the funny title Tale Wind thought of for me.

    I don' t remember trying to imply all feminists are feminazis. I' m a feminist, remember ?
    Name calling alone can' t discredit a whole movement, that' s an ad hominem attack, a fallacy. If it works it means people think the name calling is deserved. This might explain why people have legitimate reasons to be wary of feminists :


    Now don' t take me wrong, I do realize that this particular word is often waved around for less than noble reasons by die hard misogynists, I' m not that daft. I wouldn' t agree with Sargon to say there' s nothing left to fix in the West. But since we' re talking about labels :


    If you only watch one vid watch the later, it sums everything up better than I could. While I wouldn' t throw Sarkeesian or Brianna Wu in the nazi box I would totally call them tumblrinas, as in most of what they say (judging from what I' ve seen) is either asinine or self-contradicting. A hundred per cent feelz based. They' ve crossed my line into insane word police. It makes me cringe to think they' re thought of as pertinent public faces for feminism. And to be honest that shirtgate thing kinda broke the camel' s back on my end, talk about first world problems. I doubt I' m the only one in that boat. Remember that thread about rape in the army ? The one that opened with a blatantly androgynist post ? Yet everyone got on my ass when I called it out ? That' s far from being an isolated incident in feminist conversations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  18. Menos Grande Kingdom Keeper

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    I watched the latter video, and the problem is that even though you don't wan't to call them Feminazi, you started a tread that implies there is a huge group of them, and as the video says it doesn't accurately describes them as there is no group of women organizing concentration camps for men, making genocides or pushing the nazi agenda, the only way a feminazi would be accurate, would be if in the Nazi german there was strangely a woman (or group of women) that were both Nazi and Feminist such a group would be difficult or impossible to find.

    That being said, I also think that if a woman says something stupid like "Death to all men", they are responsable for what they are saying, and could have to respond criminaly to it(if they engage in such action, or if inciting crime is against the law where they live).
    The thing is that is an isolated thing, the sexism (male dominance) is being at role for centuries and have been granted by religion, culture, and other political /societal organizations so is just like a cartel or mob of sorts, a crime that is being pushed by many people (unconsciously or not) targeting a group of people. The same aplies for racism and trans/homophobia some times those were even asserted by law or history, and even today a lot more of these minorities suffer violence just because they don't belong.

    So even if a woman hate men for being men, or a black guy (don't think afroamerican is a necessity as well) hates a white guy, there is no support network for their hate that will cause more violence towards white(male) people.

    As for Anita, I also think that she is often wrong (remember to do mistakes is a human thing, women do it just like men), mainly when she criticizes symptoms over the higher issue. For example, she was complaining about Watch Dogs in one video, where the main character size and stops an crime organization that sells women as sex slaves, the message was clear "This happens, but it is bad! You should fight against it", but she treated that as an objectification of women... sure the CRIMINALS were objectifying a woman, but the player and the story were not.
    Another video she complains about Red Dead Redemption being sexist... the game is set in the wild west, to make things "right" they would have to change history and negate that people were sexist, they could make a game/movie that we never had slaves? I think I would make a disservice to the cause to change the game, it is a sour reminder that we were not always as nice as we are now.
    The symptom is... those games probably are popular not just because they are showing the bad stuff so that good people are aware of that, probably there are some sexist/racist/trans-homophobic enjoying those games. The games are show in a male-white perspective because of the way our society stills values them more than other groups of people, that is the overall problem that she forgets to takle while foccusing on things that were not bad per se.

    Ps.: I don't like name-calling even when people are right to do so, because when you start calling people sexist/feminazi/ drama queen etc.. you are actually stopping the conversation because you lack the arguments or the patience to engage a deeper conversation, I do not believe anyone is 100% one label.
     
  19. Patman Bof

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    Okay clearly we' re not on the same wavelength here so let me define the word as I understand it : a feminazi is a feminist with a fascist/authoritarian attitude. Doesn' t have to reach nazi extremes.

    I' ve signed two contracts that had me promise, among other things, to mind the length of my skirt and the flashiness of my lipstick. My sister is a nurse, she has seen many kids refuse to believe their doctor was really a doctor because it was a woman. I know there are preconceptions going around, but I think blaming it all on the ominous patriarchy is ridiculous. Women and men might just have different interests, ask any mother of many and she' ll tell you we' re not born blank slates.

    My sis gave my nephew all sorts of toys from his birth, including dolls and plastic dish washers. I saw him play with everything but his favorites were football and cars from starters. Two years later everything "girly" was gone. I' m sure there is some form of institutionalized resistance, but I wouldn' t blame all our differences on it. I' ve been an IT student, in two schools, the lack of women in that field was startling. Is it really such a wonder few women get these jobs if few even try ?

    I was sympathetic with Anita at first, if memory serves I even opened a thread here about it. But then things went downhill fast. The list of beefs people have with her is endless, but it' s all over youtube already. Worse thing is talking about her, even in a negative light, still promotes that con artist. Yay me. Personally I don' t care about representation. First because I' m more often than not looking for a game first and foremost, and second because I identify with my character in terms of his actions, especially in-game. How he looks is often purely cosmetic. At least it is to me. People write about what they know, it' s about what the characters go through, not about who they are per se.

    There' s no real tactful way to say you' ve just entered loopy territory. Thing is, where do you draw the line and why. While name calling doesn' t make a pertinent point any less pertinent, yes, trying to be tactful is generally advisable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  20. Menos Grande Kingdom Keeper

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    My main problem with "Feminazi" is that it gives the impression that being a female that hates man is WORSE than a man tha hates women, because there is no Andronazi/MaleNazi or such... so is just like the video that you put before states, one thing is describe Afroamerican as Black people that is an accurate statement, but calling them the N word that has a strong bad conotation is bad... the word Nazi has a strong bad conotation, and I don't think it is accurate even by aiming at extremist women because I fail to grasp a huge organization behind it.
    In my opinion when the oppressed group reacts to the opression they are bound to give birth to extremists, I wouldn't call a slave that freed himself killing his master a Nazi, so the optics and semantics of this word are wrong because women were never at the top chasing man, any statistic will show that more man Kills women than women Kills man, this will reflect in other minorities as well.
    I also think that we are not blank slates , and that we probably have many differences that are biologicaly imprinted, I don't go as far as some activists go as for saying that without "Heteronormativity" people would probably choose to be bi, or 50% would be gay, and even recognizing that there are Trans people they always will be a minority. The fight for equality exists for the minorities that got it worse have some oportunity to compete with the Male-white Cis man that has all the oportunity.
    About the "ominous patriarchy" thing, I don't think you get it, and most people don't either (and I maybe fooling myself as well),
    but my belief is this:
    Just like there is no evil summit of rich bankers that gather to screw the rest of the population for profit, there is no secret club of men dictating what women/man can or cannot do, and enforce gender roles. What really happens is this:
    We live in a world with limited resources (take it like you want physical/political etc.), the people with power will fight to maintain the status quo, and thus their power. They are not (not always anyway) intentionally screwing people, the thing is that their goals are in opposition with the other people. The crisis of the capitalism in 2008 was made because some bankers tried to get more money and they did some sketchy stuff with the accounting , they most likely didn't thought "Hey... you know what would be great? Make some people lose money :D", they thought about their profit in the short term. Some times there will be a great conspiracy to screw someone over, but most of times the big screw ups are done by people that are not aware of their selfish actions, World War one and the killing of Franz Ferdinand by the Black Hand, and even the people that created the trans fat that should be easier to break, but our body does not do it, so It become unhealthy.
    So the patriarchy is just this, a male dominant society trying to keep the things like they are now because is good for them, men have more privileges, and women have some safety net at the expense of less opportunities. Because we were raised at this society it is difficult to imagine there is any other system available, but there is, there were in the past, and probably there will be in the future, not just for gender roles , but for economics and other things as well.