Please Explain

Well I know that perfection is impossible, but why would God (a perfect being) create imperfect beings in the first place with the ability to do wrong/evil/sin?

As a matter of fact, why make humans in the first place xD But that is off-topic, and for another discussion.

Anyway, applying this to the situation at hand, these imperfections snuffed out an entire family. But as you said, **** does happen and it tends to happen to the wrong people =/

 

well, if you go by the bible...we WERE perfect.

but then, the apple thing...and stuff.....and thus...we changed...and thus we were made perfect, but are not currently perfect.

 

Why have the miracles dried up? Is god subject to a video game mechanic? "Takes 3 million years to regain godpower, you have 1,476,532 years to go"

You can claim that god may be a parent, but that is not the christian god I know. it doesn't seem like the one that did so much for his followers in the bible. Why can it grant Moses the power to cut through waves, but it cannot give one of those children a sudden urge to go to the toilet minutes before the crash so the accident would be avoided?

The question was about the Christian god, IIRC (I've wanted to use the acronym for so long!). Therefore we assume it is the same one as in the bible. So why can god not avert that tragedy? You can say that he does not directly interfere, but he sent his son down to cure lepers and paralyzed children.

I am told that these people die because it is part of his grand plan, but how much interest does his plan pay to me as an individual? I thought a god was supposed to care for me and love me. Why would it allow this sort of thing to happen?

Cry Metaphor all you like. I can see clearly enough that if the miricles in the bible were metaphors, it means in a broad sense "Be good and god will look out for you." How is killing those people in a crash "Looking out for them"? If it is literal, my point stands.

In fact, the whole notion of original sin is not withstanding our current morals. So humanity has surpassed god eh? After all, we don't condemn children to death for having a bad father. We don't exile families because of one member's mistake, no matter how large.

While I'm on the topic of that, what's up with the whole "Death to your firstborns" thing? Surely "thou shalt no kill" means that getting your god to go on a mass murdering spree is a bad thing? I thought god was supposed to be forgiving and kind. Yet he happily destroyed all the firstborns in egypt simply because their king was harsh towards some slaves. We did not slaughter every firstborn german in cold blood because of Hitler! Are we more merciful than god?

I see massive organizations working to gather funds to help those in third worlds. What is god doing to help, apart from sending malaria?

At the moment, I am atheist not only because of a lack of belief, but because if a god did exist, he would be a cruel, genocidal tyrant. This is why I refuse to believe.

 

Pika_power

That, is quite possibly one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read.

I fully agree with you and I love your points.

​

 

okay, so lets go a step at a time.(very long mind blowing post, needs to be answered slowly)


why should he, saying miracles have dried up is really a good deduction....but ask yourself

"what do i need God for?" and if your answer is "nothing" then, i think the answer to this question should be thought of by each one of us.


well, if we go by bible standards he never really came to be a medic, yes he did help them, but most cases he was asked to cure and to perform miracles.....

"if you went to one place to preach, saw a sick person and you could heal him/her....would you not heal the person? ....it's quite apparent the answer

I'm pretty sure we deducted it wasn't part of his "grand plan"(does this even exist?)

why do you use the word killing?....it was a car crash, occurrence, it wasn't God wanting to destroy a family.


in the bible there is mentioned a law "the law of moses" this was written by moses for Israel, these rules were substancial for their times in the desert and after that the farises(sp?) became too fixated on these rules and became extremist, giving these rules a wrong meaning , and started using them to their advantage, Jesus came to abolish the law of moses, and most of the time the farises came to him to ask a bunch of questions to entrap him.
anyways, the things you mention are in the moses law written for the time in the desert....not written by God....at the times of moses men where the heads of the families and the rest had no say and barely mattered(as sad as that sounds)

Okay, i can see why you bring this up, the whole first born thing was done, but the message was relayed through egypt, and we have to look back at things....the plagues.....the king knew the plagues were real...he saw them first hand....and after being warned...you would think he would reconsider....if there was a killing spree in your neighborhood , you would make the necessary preparations to survive and protect your house, and more so, if you were given a warning.

Well,yeah, but you can't blame Him for a rotting world, just as you can't blame your body for getting sick, it wasn't on purpose, it just happens....anyways ADRA, that's all i will say about this


*Totally blown away by Pika.*

Pika you are one amazing electric rat.

 

Pika, that post was very thoughtful and I feel much as you do. There just are no answers that can be given that change the facts and inquiries stated. Well said.

 

Wow. thanks a lot.

all the more reason i shouldn't waste my time posting, eh?

well, i got nothing to keep the thread going,sorry. >.>

 

:( Don't take offense to it, please. I have serious reasons in my life why no Christian can ever think of an answer that will ever make sense and I've given them all the chances in the world to try. I've given preachers and churches the chances and no answers ever can be explained as to how a caring and compassionate god can also be so selfish, punishing and let such horrible things happen to people. You are very smart and what you said works for some people but even though I've been open-minded about it, I don't find the responses Christians give as 'logical' to explaining why. The only thing that makes sense is that if there is a God, he doesn't involve himself at all in the life of mundanes. It's an opinion, and I respect your view, so don't take my comment so badly.

 

If god exists, he didn't "let" this happens, people did it.

 

Those people in the car needed god. Where was he then? Everyone needs god at one point or another. The Jews needed help when Hitler brought about a genocidal war upon them. I don't recall anybody parting seas then, or firstborn sons biting the dust at that point. Why should the rules change between Egypt and Germany?

He may have only come to preach, but he healed. Besides, as god is omnipresent, he always sees people dying and such, just like Jesus did. There is no difference. Jesus did it to prove his existence, so why would god not do it again and again? Assuming he is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, there should be no reason for pain or suffering brought on by means outside human factors.

So there is no grand plan? That's nice to know. So those people died not because god thought it was for the best, but because god couldn't be bothered saving them. Not helping the existence group here.

I call it killing because god's will is law. Assuming God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing, it means that he has the desire to save them, the ability to save them and the knowledge of their fate. The are impossible criteria in this situation, as it would mean that if god wanted them to be saved, they would be here today. If you take all this into account and we know that the family fulfilled the criteria for gaining god's favour, (Being devout Christians, being human and living good lives) it means that god did not save them when he had every reason to and it would have taken no effort. I consider this killing. Don't you?

Think of it this way. I see my child walking onto the road. I see a truck coming. I can call out to my child and he will see the truck and flee. Instead I keep quiet, looking on, knowing what is about to happen. This is no better than murder. If a god exists, I want no part in him.


Yet for some reason we still need to have some water splashed upon our heads or we are doomed to hell. Jesus may have fixed some laws, but others are still flawed; no. Even backed up by him.

The things I referenced were not extremist laws, they were merely the means by which god allowed the Jews to escape Egypt. If we disregard that, we have a massive plot hole or two.
Also, weren't all the firstborns struck? They were the future men of the household. Of course they were important. It wasn't all the pole dancers, or all the senile men, it was the future of Egypt, young men in their prime.


He killed every firstborn! He gave some warnings to a stubborn king, so he did the kind and loving thing. He left the king alone and slaughtered the innocent. I fail to see how this is just. It is not even as if it were a joint decision. A pharaoh disobeyed god so god punished those who knew nothing about it. If this is how god treats others, I feel I would be just as well of if I left my soul in the hands of Gorge Bush!

The message was written by the followers of god, not the Egyptians. How else would they know the technicalities of it, such as how the Jews needed to leave a cooked lamb outside so the angel would pass over their house?

Speaking of the lamb deal, what sort of deity needs a signal like that? It seems like he is a preschooler with a "Colour by number" book. If the house has a lamb, paint it blue. If it has not, paint it red. Only the red happens to be the blood of those inside.


I can very easily blame god for a rotting world. What does he hope to achieve by sending Malaria, making us live in shanty towns and bringing things like cancer upon us? None of these are man-made. They are due to nature. God made this world, and he has the power, the knowledge and the will to fix it. So why do we still have these curses?

J.D.

People caused this crash? People caused cancer? People caused malaria? People caused the freak deaths?

I doubt it.

Oh, and just to firmly put a bullet of truth into that counter, I want you to re-read the bible. David and Goliath. Moses and Aaron. In these stories, god had no problem stepping in to avoid harm coming to his followers, caused by humans or not. You can try to pass off the murders of those in the car as him sticking true to the free will argument, but he never abide by his own rules. He helped Moses and Aaron to escape their man-made prison of Egypt and he got David to brutally kill Goliath. Both of these were oppressors formed from free will. He tore those down without a second thought.

But when it comes to sparing a family from a horrendous death, it proves to be against the rules.

Again, the god I have just detailed is the one preached about in the bible. If that is the god that exists, he is a hypocritical being with double standards applied when it suits him. Ironically, the god with the tag line "Thou shall not kill" is responsible for the largest massacres.

The only way I can explain it is he is a fabrication from those in power. created in order to subdue the masses. The rules then change from "Thou shall not kill" to "Thou shall not kill except to save yourself" to "thou Shall not kill except for murderers" to "Thou shall not kill except for criminals" to "Thou shall not kill except for the witch, the heretic and those who oppose our deity"

Oh, and all of those things happen to be defined by those in power. Coincidence, or a lie gone too far?

 

I answer the questions, but this thread really bothered me, because no matter what I say, it falls on deaf ears who wouldn't even care to read(Except pika of course), I know no one meant anything harmful by it, but it felt like that, so i'm sorry for being so fixated on things.

I think he doesn't care anymore about death as it is only a parenthesis in this world, and the only reason that Israel was kept alive was so that the Son of God would be born between them and were there to represent a "special" kind of tribe.

I don't understand the first part of the second question, but , yes he healed, and yes but what exactly do you mean by outside human factors?

That's kinda harsh to say, why should allmighty being bother to save human flesh, when in reality his goal isn't human affairs, but to be saved and go to heaven.

..."but to be saved and go to heaven"

you'll have to expand on more than that....splashed heads...catholic.

So God is unjust, sue him(see that killing did seem unfair.

Well sorry to say this, but a malfunctioning body isn't something you should blame God for, Malaria, yes, deadly, but God didn't send it as with cancer, anyways, sin= decay(this doesn't mean we won't die if we are less sinful) It means the world is filled with sin, as would with a deadly virus,and as such the world decays slowly, but sin is a parenthesis in the history of the world...because evil isn't eternal.

but blame God, it's definately easier to do so.


A lie gone too far?....that's very interesting....what if that was so?

Would we just be a bunch of ***** and stuff....there would be noGod after all.

 

honestly, dont flame me for this, people, but after all that's happened to me, i stopped believing in a god that is kind, because this isn't something a kind god should do. sorry. *runs away from thread*

 

So you beleive in a god that is cruel and unrelenting?

 

actually, quite a few people believe that God has stopped taking an active role on Earth and has become more of an observer. i heard this from some nuns one time. i am actually an atheist but that i guess that would explain some things that people ask like: how could God let this happen? and etc. and etc.

 

No...........I dont think a god could be that cruel if they created all this. more, i think a god/gods let us lead our own lives, but will punish us after we die for what we have done wrong.....dont even get me started on what is right or wrong.

 

Again, the downfall of those theories is the three qualities of god. All loving, all knowing, all powerful.

If he is all knowing, why bother observing us? He knows what will happen.

If he is all loving, he would be unable to remain distant. how can he be content with viewing the world as it is? Billions starving? Honestly, how could he not intervene and save us? Why the sudden change of heart?

If he is all powerful, he can fix the world. He could prevent anything bad from happening. He could eliminate sufferring, or if he is still wrapped up in his "Free will" concept (Which is completely BS. If he can be bothered removing a bully like Goliath, he should be bothered deseating Mugabe), he could at least destroy the things he sent, such as typhoid.

 

Update on the story. The Portuguese lorry driver who killed the family has been cleared of death by dangerous driving and convicted on the lesser charge of death by careless driving. He has been sentenced to three years in jail but may only serve 18 months.

This just goes to show how little justice there is in the world when someone can kill a family of six and get away with a minimum of 18 months in jail.

Link here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7888653.stm

 

I don't know if anyone else has already responded to this, but here goes:

I, personally, will leave any Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Satanist, or whatever religious person alone, if they will do one thing: Leave ME alone. I don't particularly WANT to get calls at any time from Christian evangelists wanting me to *sarcasm*"accept Christ"*/sarcasm*. I want to be left to my Atheism in peace, just like they want to be left to God in peace, but when they start foisting THEIR religion on ME, I will start foisting MINE onto THEM. And of course, if the subject comes up in a debate, I will argue my point, just as they will argue theirs.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depending on how pessimistic you are), we in the free world generally have separation of church and state, which means that no one can FORCE religious people to keep to themselves, or vice versa.

Tl;dr: Just leave me alone, and you will be left alone. Enter a religious debate, though, and expect to have to defend your religion.

 

bunter i'm glad you posted this because it's so entertaining for people to explain god, it's like saying "The rascally elves did it". What i want to know is why people believe in it, a geniune reason besides something related to "Thats what i was raised to believe" or "because he just does exist".