FITE NITE OBJECTIVITY VERSUS SUBJECTIVITY

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by A Zebra, Jun 8, 2014.

  1. A Zebra Chaser

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    I've been embroiled in an argument about this recently, it's kinda in the same vein as the argument me and @@DigitalAtlas had a bit ago.
    But while I was able to understand his view, I just heartily disagree with it, this new one is a thing of its own.
    The conversation is primarily about Bioshock Infinite. Other stuff comes up, but this seems to be the focus. The thing that's bothering me is that people are making the argument not that reviews should be objective, like Atlas was, but rather that subjective things were objective because of majority rule.
    The example the opposition used:
    The way Elizabeth acts in Bioshock Infinite doesn't make sense, since she was secluded for most of her life.
    The argument is this is an objective criticism that any critic could use.
    I said that there are reasons that could be interpreted as to why she acts the way she does, like her being alone so long made her desperate to interact with people, or something. The response I got was "just because some people can see it differently doesn't mean it's not objective"
    So I dunno, it seems to me like it varying from subject to subject is the definition of being subjective, but I'm curious what other people here thing.
    In particular I'm curious what @@DigitalAtlas thinks of this, because this is in theory pretty close to his beliefs, but almost seems like the antithesis to what he thinks.
    @Square Enix-chan
     
  2. Ars Nova BLACK HEATRTED VIL

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    I think people need to stop using those two words as weapons, and recognize that something is rarely 100% one or the other and usually a muddled mix of the two. Not that you asked. :v

    Can I ask why this isn't in Debate though? Seems like a good candidate.
     
  3. Chad Thundercucc The dharma of valvu; the dream of a clatoris

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    First of all, it is literally impossible to judge a piece of art objectively. It's all a matter of opinion after all. The writers for this game could've just as easily been like "Yes, we wrote Elizabeth like that because her character is a metaphor for..." etc. etc. And any criticism one can bring up about a work of art can be shooed away by saying "I meant to do that, because I wanted to" something or other.

    Hell, there's even this painting that's a blank white canvas, it's called "Snowy Day", and some museums around the country have this "painting" in their very own exhibits. Some may call it bs because no work was involved in making it, and others may call it a masterpiece because it's a "revolutionary and experimental new form of minimalism" or something.

    Bottom line, there's no true way that you can appreciate a piece of art objectively...in my opinion.
     
  4. A Zebra Chaser

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    Oh for the love of
    I have to put it somewhere ELSE now? @Square Enix-chan you destroyed everything

    Anyways yeah, I've made that argument in the same place where this topic originated from. My stance is that there isn't enough objective to say about a game to fill a review, there is enough subjective stuff for a review, but the strongest ones use both. Like not that YOU asked, but as much as possible I try to make the footage in my reviews line up with my complaints so that people have some way of seeing it

    That's kinda another thing, with something that minimalistic what objectively can you say?
    It's white
    It's a canvas
    It's called Snowy Day

    That's just a description, there's no review to be found.
    Though with things a bit more complex, like a video game, there are objective things you can say that can impact purchasing decision, like frames per second, or lag
     
  5. Ienzo ((̲̅ ̲̅(̲̅C̲̅r̲̅a̲̅y̲̅o̲̅l̲̲̅̅a̲̅( ̲̅̅((>

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    ~Merged threads. Because they were the same. Any questions, feel free to message me.

    I suppose then that objectivity cannot be applied to art for "art is in the eye of the beholder" which, by definition, means it's all subjective. My sister is an artist and delights in just this idea, she creates beautiful paintings that are basically colourful blobs on black and people interpret them differently because that is what people do, they have to find meaning in it and so put their own subjective feelings onto it. An objective perspective of such an art piece would be "It's an arrangement of colourful shapes on a black background" but then that destroys the whole idea of the art piece. So basically any art can really be viewed as objective in my opinion.
     
  6. Patman Bof

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    A museum dedicated to Soulages opened in my town last week. He claimed to paint "le noir qui attire la lumière" (the light-catching black). To my grandpa, who went to school with him for years and was also a painter (though purely for entertainment), it was all just random black splatters. He said it to his face and ... the guy didn' t disagree. That light-catching bs was just a marketing ploy, I doubt it truly fooled anyone. Doesn' t really matter whether it did or not though : "high" art is mostly bought as an investment, a means to safely store/make money and evade taxes. Its actual artistic/aesthetic value is but a mere optional afterthought.

    I could laud Guernica or rip holes into The Matrix all day long, but in the end I think Guernica looks like shit and I loved The Matrix. We love art for emotional reasons. Skillfulness, message pertinence and historical relevance be damned. Death of the author, yaddy yaddy yadda.

    I heard Picasso, when asked how to distinguish between his genuine works and the numerous fakes that were circulating, simply answered "If it' s good, it' s mine. If it' s bad, it' s a fake."
     
  7. A Zebra Chaser

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    I doubt it so much fools people as much as it makes people not want to say what they really think because they think it'll make them seem stupid, or not hip to the art yo
    yo
     
  8. Patman Bof

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    Ah yes, I forgot, it' s also a means to buy social status.
     
  9. WEIRD UTILITARIANISM Anti-Identitarian

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    Objectively speaking, majority rule alone does not make anything objective. There must be concrete facts and figures to support it. The majority of opinions can change over time, so anything to do with such opinions is, by nature, subjective.

    Basically, if I can count up all the "numbers" and then "do the math" to get results that are consistent with (though not necessarily the same as) yours every time no matter what, then your claim is objectively correct. Anything else is subjective. For example, it is an objective fact that the majority of people at a given point in time like Thing X. Whether or not Thing X is good, however, is and always will be subjective.
     
  10. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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    Objectively speaking, even if those studies were done by everyone as a collective scientific body, their findings would still say as much about the tools they used to take their measurements as the thing they measured.

    Objective empirical truth is inherently impossible to know because we cannot separate the observer from what is observed.

    However, that does not mean that experimentation is not good! Ever better probability of success is always better than sticking with what you had.

    To quote Skinner:

    The ultimate criterion for the goodness of a concept is not whether two people are brought into agreement but whether the scientist who uses the concept can operate successfully upon his material—all by himself if need be.
    ― Burrhus Frederic Skinner​
     
  11. WEIRD UTILITARIANISM Anti-Identitarian

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    Yeah, I should have worded what I said better. I referring more to concepts that can be treated with either objectivity vs. subjectivity.

    Take the question "What is 2+2?" There is only one possible answer to that, 4, and there is absolutely no room for opinions to muddle the issue and that makes it an objective question.

    Contrast the question, "Does Elizabeth's behavior in Bioshock Infinite make sense, given the fact that she was sheltered from all human contact for most of her life?" Here, there are many facts from which a conclusion can be drawn, but all of those facts can be interpreted in different ways, resulting in a number of equally valid answers. This means that even the most common conclusion is not necessarily the correct one, making it a subjective question.

    I'm starting to think I misread the OP and that the point I'm arguing isn't as relevant as I thought.
     
  12. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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  13. Chad Thundercucc The dharma of valvu; the dream of a clatoris

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    And the funny thing is that, he'd often disown his bad paintings and just be like "it's a fake" and blamed the painting on some imposter.
     
  14. Patman Bof

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    I couldn' t help but wonder if he did that. xD