Burning a Game

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by NemesisPrime, Oct 12, 2011.

  1. NemesisPrime Hollow Bastion Committee

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    I'm a strong advocator of buying your games and making backups in case you lose the original disk, so here's my hangup: I own KH1 but have since lost the disk so I'm thinking of burning The Final Mix version to replace it because of the fact it's basically the same game with some new additions and touch ups.

    I'd like to know what you guys think as I'm kinda iffy on if I should do this or not and some input would be most lovely.
     
  2. smeen Destiny Islands Resident

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    I'm really against burning things if you don't have the original, to be honest... But it's your choice, right?

    Personally, however, I'd look for a second-hand version of the game.
     
  3. Gultigargar Hollow Bastion Committee

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    Do it just to spite Square for the Japan-only release.
     
  4. ♥♦♣♠Luxord♥♦♣♠ Chaser

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    To clarify it is not the same game. I know you can't see the differences with the naked eye but a lot of it is very very different. I am not one to talk due to the fact that I have done stuff like this before and by before I mean like every day. It is all up to you. The cops won't bust down your door for doing it so I have to say why not go for it.

    Also unless you have a hacked or modded system a burnt game WILL NOT run.

    So they don't make everything in English. That doesn't make them better or worse. It is their choice as they are the people making these games.
     
  5. Patman Bof

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    Well, you already paid for that game so I say go for it.

    I have no moral issues at all about pirating games that they couldn' t be bothered to make available to me. Chrono Cross, Parasite Eve, Xenogears, many other games and most of their "Final Mix + alpha turbo zodiac international" versions were never released in Europe. I' m not gonna sit on acclaimed masterpieces just because they didn' t bother to sell them in my country. If pirates made them available when SE did not then too bad for them, if they don' t want my money in the first place they aren' t gonna complain that I didn' t pay for those games, are they ? Hell, they could have made them available on the PSN so that I can finally buy an official version, but noooo, you see them dangling in front of you on the US PSN but the console won' t let you buy them with a European credit card.

    Personally my video-game budget has always been the same, with or without piracy, and sometimes I even end up buying games I already pirated when an occasion presents itself, so I download video-games without feeling ashamed (99% of them aren' t available where I live anyway).
     
  6. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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    It is your disc. There is no ethical problem with putting that pattern on it. It is also not available to you otherwise. There is no moral problem with putting that pattern on it. You will not be charged with any crime. There is no reason to fear putting that pattern on it.

    You have no reason not to burn the disc, according to these three things.
     
  7. Always Dance Chaser

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    You have no reason to feel bad for downloading a game that Squeenix chose not to make available for you to buy. When they made that decision they literally decided that they did not want your money.
     
  8. Mixt The dude that does the thing

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    I have to point out that the logic that you own KH1 doesn't mean much. Most people okay with pirating don't care if you own another version of it or not. And most people who aren't okay with pirating know that you need the same version for it to count. I fall into the latter myself, but I can hardly stop you if you choose to go for it. All I ask is that you own up to it being pirating none of this "But it isn't that bad because of {X}" stuff.
     
  9. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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    You are implying piracy is bad in itself. I can simultaneously own up to the fact that it is piracy and claim that it is not bad.

    If you need to be against it to know what it is, then there is an obvious problem with your reasoning. One would assume that those who have experienced it would be more qualified to say what it is and is not than someone who simply judges them for it.

    There are those who see nothing wrong with piracy but also like to invest in game makers if they can. Caring about whether you have a certain version or not is irrelevant to them as long as they feel that they have invested well... But the concept of intellectual property is not something that can be 'known', only acknowledged. Like the idea that I own anything, no one knows that I own something. They accept that I own it. If they do not accept it, then who can tell them different? The only way to make such notions standard is through violence, and I disagree with using violence to enforce ownership of an idea. It is not fair because there is no tangible loss on the part of the 'victim', and there is a tangible loss on the part of the person who has to pay a fine or go to jail or both. Harming someone who has done you no harm to bring yourself profit is not a reputable thing to do by my standards.
     
  10. Noroz I Wish Happiness Always Be With You

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    I'd say go for it. I don't have any problems with piracy.

    But for those of you who say that it was not made available, well that's just a bunch of crap, because you can buy it online and if you have a chipped PS2 (Zone-free) you can play any games on it. But hell, I'm all for it, if you want it; go get it.
     
  11. Mixt The dude that does the thing

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    You imply that there is no harm in piracy. Now people like to make a bigger deal about piracy than it is (especially record companies) but you are getting something that cost money to produce for free. Might be a drop in the bucket but with the sheer volume of people that do it, it is a real problem.

    What we need is a good economic system for the digital age, but thus far I haven't heard of one. But until then I have to disagree with you, there is an ethical and legal reason not to pirate.

    I've discussed this with you in the past however and have little interest in repeating that debate. You dislike the current system and refuse to abide by it and wish the authorities to pick up the pieces after this "civil disobedience" I would rather have abide by the current system until we can devise an improved one. Unless you believe you can convince me to change that point this time around then you're just wasting your time.


    Though I did just have an idea, but that isn't for this thread. I'll get it up in a minute.
     
  12. Always Dance Chaser

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    Because there isn't, in most cases. If I cannot afford to buy a game, how does it affect the video game company in any way if I pirate it? I wouldn't buy the game either way. All that can happen is me telling my friends how cool it is. I can show you tons of studies that show that piracy helps game sales in most cases. The U.S. Legal System recognizes that a pirated game does not count as a lost sale. Studies on PC games show that sales tend to go up shortly after it becomes possible to pirate the game, and the games that get the best sales also have the most piracy.
     
  13. Mixt The dude that does the thing

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    Yeah, but last I talked to Makaze that isn't what he is talking about. What you are talking about is the legal and social norm being to buy the game and looking at the effects of pirating next to it. Makaze wants pirating to be acceptable as the norm and to my knowledge there is no study on that. Maybe look at products like Music for Relief that have open downloading with a suggested download donation. Though this can't be done all that scientifically since there is no way to make an accurate control group that I can think of.

    I am curious though, I have heard about these studies but I can't find much more on them other than that they exist. And this is the first I've heard that the US doesn't count pirating as a lost sale, if you could site that I would love it since surely when that precedent was set they must have made a counter example saying what piracy is exactly. If it isn't a lost sale then they need something to say that it is something else, otherwise piracy can't be enforced because it has no ground to stand on.
     
  14. Always Dance Chaser

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    Sure. This study performed at Duke University shows that DRM increases piracy and that more piracy usually doesn't mean less sales. It's one of many. This is a judge ruling that a shared file is not a lost sale. The charge people get for pirating is copyright infringement, which I find to be bull.
     
  15. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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    I am implying that the ethical implications of intellectual property are too damaging to make it a worthwhile concept. More loss is incurred in defense of intellectual property than is lost in violating it. It is fallacious to claim a potential profit and turn it into a real loss on the part of the pirate. If you cannot sell your ideas without causing others losses, then you do not deserve to profit from them. My argument has nothing to do with drops in the bucket; I simply see intellectual property as wrong.
    You might consider bands that give their albums out for free online and yet still make a living. An example of a band that I listen to is Bomb the Music Industry!. The law of supply and demand is the only thing that will ethically make sure that artists get compensation for their work. As I stated in previous threads, people will either pay artists or have no art to take in. It is as simple as that, and people will invest in things that they see promise in. This is how markets are supposed to work. You cannot tell me that all of those fans who do not want their favorite bands to break up are going to change their minds because they can get away with not paying for it. I just can't see it happening.
     
  16. Mixt The dude that does the thing

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    That actually makes a degree of sense now that I'm looking at it. Paying restitution to the company and paying fines the the government is effectively being punished twice for the same premise. I think they should be made to pay to the companies first and an inability to do that resulting in government action.

    I'll look at the piracy vs. sales study a bit later. I'm a bit too tired to actively read that right now.

    I can agree that piracy enforcement these days is too much, but I'm not optimistic enough to think that the public would act properly if given free reign. People love to throw money at a problem for a month and then put it out of sight and out of mind. At best you can rehash a problem multiple times, but until it effects them directly too many people just don't care.
     
  17. Always Dance Chaser

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    You'd be surprised. I saw a show on ABC a while ago where a man had a burger stand where he gave out burgers for any price and told people to pay what they thought it was worth. Apparently they were pretty damn good. He ended up making more than double what he would have if he sold them at $4 a burger.
     
  18. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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    My argument does not imply optimism. I hold that art should either die out or people should pay for it willingly. Not some compromise that lets people get hurt over an artistic idea.
    This is the kind of point that I was making. Standard currency and price tags play a large role in the rebellion that we see with piracy and a lot of literal theft and fraud. People like to believe that they are the only decent ones out there, but when you set up a pay it forward system, people will pay. Non profit organizations do well for some reason or another. It doesn't pay to be cynical. Or so the numbers say.
     
  19. Lauriam I hope I didn't keep you waiting...

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    I normally wouldn't post in a thread like this, but it is apparent to me that Mixt is practically alone in his argument, and everyone else who posted is against him in their veiws. Since I agree with Mixt, I've decided to hop in and share my two cents.

    The simple fact of the matter is this: Piracy is stealing, stealing is illegal, and doing something illegal is wrong. You can justify it all you want to, you can cite studies and pretend it helps the artist and you can tell yourself that it's pretty much the same game anyway, but underneath all the excuses, you find the theft.

    Now don't get me wrong, I do think it's alright to burn back-up disks of things you've purchased, in fact, I've done it myself. But the key word here is "purchased". If you aren't willing to pay for your stuff, you shouldn't steal it. If you can't afford something, earn some extra cash. Get a job, mow somebody's lawn, wash your neighbors car. There are plenty of ways to earn money, there's no need to make an artist pay for your lack of money.

    As for it being a victimless crime, well, try and think of this from a different point of veiw. No self respecting artist in the music industry alone would be perfectly fine with people stealing their music. In fact, it's probably the worst thing you could do to a musician. You know that an artist's record sales reflects on the artists themselves, as well as their paycheck? I know that if I made music, I would want people to think my music was worth paying for, I wouldn't want it to be stolen from me. The same goes for VG companies like Square. It's not victimless.

    As for integrity among buyers, I'm very happy for the burger guy who got twice as much money as he would have, had he put a price tag on his food. I wish more people were like his customers. However, that is not the case in today's world, and KH1 final mix actually does have a price. If a person doesn't think the game is worth paying for, they shouldn't own it.

    Anyway, that's just my veiw on the subject. (I typed the whole thing out on the Wii, aren't you all proud of my perseverence? I gtg. My fingers are stuck to the remote. XP)
     
  20. Makaze Some kind of mercenary

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    There is so much wrong with this statement that I am having trouble beginning to argue against it. You are using an appeal to law and claiming that something is a fact without any explanation or definition of the terms used in any way. Please rethink things before saying them.

    Theft is widely known and best accepted as the forcible transfer of wealth. Please explain how wealth is being forcibly transfered in the transaction known as piracy.
    I had an idea that could have made me some money, and I told it to a friend, telling them not to share it with anyone. They did so anyway. Now I claim to be a victim. What am I victim of? The only things that have been violated are my pride and my dreams of what I thought I could have later on. I have lost nothing that I already had. I have my possessions, my money, my house and my personal safety. If I can be a victim because my hopes and dreams were betrayed, then no blow to my pride is victimless. By your definition, just about anything that offends me makes me a victim. You need to draw the line somewhere, but how and why? "Because it is the law" is an invalid argument. If you want to work out why it is invalid then we shall do that, but I would prefer to move on instead of discussing fallacies.