Atheists know God better than any Christian, Jew, or Muslim can hope...

TheVader74 is correct in his final statement in post #80. An athiest, by definition, is a person that doesn't believe in a God of any kind. An athiest may know about God, but if a person truly knows God, they cannot be an athiest, because in order to know someone, you have to believe they exist. For example, I know about the musician Adam Young, a.k.a., Owl City. I've heard his music (I've even made some kh vids to some of his songs), I follow him on twitter and facebook, I know for a fact that his new CD All Things Bright And Beautiful just came out in stores yesterday. (YAY!!!) HOWEVER, I would be lying if I said I knew him. A person may know everything about someone without really knowing them at all. Going back to my story about the puppets, I got so caught up in the fourth puppet that I forgot to emphasize the point I started out to make in the first place. If you look at the lives of the first puppet and the third puppet, which one really knew their creator? The first one that knew all about him and didn't care, or the third puppet that loved the man and talked to him? With that point made, I'll move on to the next point. I could very well say that I don't believe Adam Young really exists. That I think he is a fictional character invented by a person in a desperate attempt to right the wrongs of music in our generation. I could say that if I so chose. But just because I don't believe that he exists, doesn't mean that he really isn't real.

Confused? That's all right. It's kind of a hard pill to swallow. :)

 

Owa. :/ That makes sense. But that reminds me if it does answer the question that the atheists can actually know more about god them the religious people themselves?

 

Keyblade Spirit's argument, in a nutshell, is as follows:

"Religious people act morally and righteously, because they believe it is God's will that a world in which people act morally and righteously exists, and they wish to follow God's commands. Atheists act morally and righteously because they wish for a world in which people act morally and righteously. Therefore atheists are closer to God, because they come to the same conclusion and share the same opinions as God, without being directly told to do so by a higher power."

 

In the puppet analogy it would mean that the atheist puppet is the one whose behavior and thoughts are closest to God' s.
(the atheist puppet acts as if it doesn' t have nor need a father, as does God)

 

You know, just because the athiest puppet thinks he doesn't need a father, doesn't mean he actually doesn't. You see, wood rots with age. No matter how skillful the creator, wood eventually will rot. The last two puppets were in a father/child relationship with their creator, so he was able to keep them nice and new. But the first two didn't really know him and didn't want anything to do with him, so neither one allowed him to touch them, and they both eventually died, in a manner of speaking. And as for them being close in their thinking, that isn't exactly uncommen for a father and his children. It might not be the most common thing in the world, but still.

 

Just because a believer thinks he needs a father, doesn't mean he actually does.

 

Precisely my point. Thanks for putting it in a better way.

 

But is the objective to be God, or to be a servant and child of God? An atheist rejects the notion of God, and instead assumes the place of God himself. In this sense, he is tasting the apple. He grasps knowledge of what it means to be God, in exchange for bearing the sin of rejecting God and superceding Him. On the other hand, those who serve god dutifully are those who do not take the apple, and acknowledge His wishes. Instead of obtaining knowledge, they remain at God's side, allowing Him to lead them and manage their lives, never attempting to choose for themselves.

Which is the desirable position to be in? The Bible would tell you that the plucking of the forbidden fruit was a mistake, and a sin. Shall we take this to mean that we should not aspire to becoming our own gods, and instead dilligently follow God's word, without seeking knowledge ourselves?

 

The goal is to be a child, but not a servant, of God. However, part of being a child is growing up and becoming equal to your parent. While that doesn't necessarily entail denying your parents' existence, it most certainly means refusing to follow your parents' orders in order to establish your own path.

As for eating of the forbidden fruit, I've always interpreted that as reverse psychology. God intended for his orders to be disobeyed so that sin would enter the world. As a result of sin (and thus, evil and a reason not to believe in God) entering the world, humanity gained the capacity to deny God's existence, bringing it that much closer to His ultimate goal. God creating humanity is roughly the same as humanity creating AIs. The goal in that is to make the digital "mind" equal to that of a human. In other words, to get the program to do more than it is programmed to do.

 

P in post 88 asks an age-old question that has baffled some of the greatest minds of all time. Do we try to live for ourselves and strive to be God, which is a very difficult thing to accomplish, or do we trust God and obey him wholly and completely, still learning the whole time? It's like this: A two year old toddler can try to be perfect, but they don't know everything. that's a common fact. But their parents know infinitely more than they do, and can tell them what to do to keep them safe. When a mother tells her son not to stick his fork in a light socket, she isn't just trying to keep him dumb and under her thumb, she is trying to keep him safe while teaching him how to live. It's like that with God. But we don't outgrow God like a child outgrows his parents. God is forever, therefore, we can never get older and wiser than him. Everytime we learn something new, He knew it when he created it thousands and thousands of years ago.

I need to leave now, but I'll try to edit later.

 

That's a good point, but my main argument is Matthew 10:24: ""A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master."

It is not our goal to become greater than God, but to become equal to God.

 

Ah, but we can apply the same logic to ordinary life. A father and mother will always be older, and there more wiser, than their children. However it is considered acceptable and even a positive event for a child to move out of the parents' care at a certain stage in life, and start making their own decisions. Even if such decisions lead to mistakes, those mistakes are a necessary part in growing. Exposure to the world is necessary for a child to learn and improve. To remain reliant on one entity is to remain in stasis, never improving.

 

We're all deluded by using God as a measurement.
God, real or not, is not us. He is not human, he is a god. How can we compare ourselves to him? We may be his children, but we aren't the same as him. At least in your example of a toddler and its mother they at least have a lot of common ground. They live in the same place, are of the same species, eat the same, walk the same, share genetics, etc. We have nothing in common with God. We are human, he is not. He is all knowing we are not. We are here, but he is not.

Humans can not strive to be God as God is not human. God can not strive to be human since God is not human. We are two different things in this universe. All we can strive to be, is not to be God like or God's children, but the best damned we can be. The best our humanity can offer us.
We should not use God as a measurement because we are human. We should measure our abilities as humans.

 

Jet user has a good point in response to Peace and Wars post, even though he posted first. Yes, the goal of a christian is to become as close to God as he can. That is what Christian means. It means Christ like. Someone who is like Christ. Now, the trick is that we, by ourselves, can never attain that status by our own methods. It would be like a wooden puppet trying to become a man by doing what he thinks a man should do. That would never happen. It is impossible. But still a christian is someone who strives to do their best and be what God wants them to be. The rest is up to God. Now, I am not saying that I think God will turn us into Gods of our own planets when we die. That's not what I believe at all. However, We do try to be like Christ.

In Genesis chapter 1 verse 26 says this:
Then God said, "Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness,..."
And in verse 27 it says
"So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female they created them."

Spoiler

So We are in fact, alike to God. True, we are not God, but we are a whole lot like him.

And as for God not being human, it says in John chapter 1 verse 14, it says:
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Now, Jesus is the Word. He is the One and Only, and he is also the Father. Jesus said in John chapter 14 verse 6:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip (One of his disciples) said "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing my work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me."

Pretty much, Jesus said that he is God. And if you believe that Jesus was real, and if you believe the Bible, then you must see that God came down in the flesh and lived among us.

Spoiler

So God did become human, and lived here on earth. He went through puberty. He had to obey his parents when they told him to do stuff he didn't want to do. He was tempted to do stuff that he knew he shouldn't do. He was human, and therefore, my analogies are valid, because we were made in his image, and he did live like us.

 

Just to note, Christian means follower of Christ like Muslim means follower of Islam and Buddhist means follower of Buddha. It means pretty much to 'be like the founder' of the religion, like you said, but I'm a stickler for accuracy in the use of words.

And about the extract of being made in God's image, we are simply the look of a god. A copy. We are not related to God. We do not share his genetics, if he has any, or his life with us. He is distant and far away and truly never here. More importantly he is not here, in our lives. How do we know if we are striving to be like him or being something opposite? If we are trying to be more Christ like, does that mean if a group of humans create a new life, a new species, does that mean we are being Christ like? God created life so if we create life does that mean we are being more like him or are we being the opposite and not following him?

I would like to add that I do belie in the human Jesus. I believe in the man who banded together people from all walks and set them the words of wisdom they needed. Whether those words are really from God or not I truly don't know. Or care. It is the substance of the words that matter. Jesus Christ touched the hearts of many for his belief of love of you fellow man, the commitment he put into showing his love and the potential to love one another. But I don't believe him to be God. At best he is a vassal of God's voice but not the God. And I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe it is the voice of man trying to forward ideas of Jesus, and adding their own beliefs. God is a character in that book but not a true being, not a god. I trust Jesus' words to be more valid then a bible that has been translated, re-written, proven, disproven a thousands of times over in English alone. Christianity is the most mysterious of religious of belief since it has little to no true knowledge of it's original beliefs.

Are you saying that we NEED God? Or is he simply there?

 

When the bible said that we were made in God's image, it didn't mean just physically. It meant our hearts were made after God's heart. We are different from every other being he made. We are superior in many ways. We are inventive, intelligent, always trying to learn, to grow. Now, I'm not saying that God has to grow or learn or anything. What I'm saying is that other animals don't do that kind of thing. Some people chock it up to evolution or a big bang, but if you really think about it, those theories fall flat. The only sensible explanation is creation by a sensient being. There are also those that believe God does exist and did create the universe, but now he just kind of floats around in space and checks up on our progress every once in a while, never stepping in or helping us out. As for us creating life, I've got a story for that. :) Bear in mind, this isn't true. It isn't based on any real time event. It's just a story.

One day, a scientist went to God and said "I just wanted to let you know that we have finally reached a place in our learning where we know as much as you do. Therefore, we don't need you anymore." God looked at him and said "How do you figure that?" The scientist replied "We have finally discovered how to create life on our own. We can succesfully create a fully self-aware human being." God smiled and said "Alright. Show me." The scientist took a deep breath, reached down, and picked up a handfull of earth to start with. No sooner had his hand left the ground, however, when God interupted and said "Hey! Get your own dirt!"

It's really just a joke, but it proves my point well. No matter how much we learn, no matter how much we can do, we will never be comparable to God. Them's the facts.

I'm not going to tell you that you have to believe that Jesus is God.

Spoiler

I do believe that he is God, and that believing so is the only way to true salvation,

but I'm not going to shove my religion down your throat. However, I will say that most versions of the Bible are extremely accurate. When the new testament was first written, the custom for churches was whenever they got a new text, they read it aloud in their church and then made word-for-word copies and sent them to all the other churches so they could have them too. We have found hundreds of copies of every book in the new testament with only a few minor changes in the wording of a few phrases. The book 'Homer' has been around for as long as the bible, if not longer, and only has had a few texts found anywhere. Yet, people don't have the same problem with Homer that they do with the Bible. Anyway, back to the translations. The NIV (New International Version) Bible, for example, was translated using several original texts by a large group of scholars in a system with checks and balances. If one scholar thought that a verse should be translated one way, the other scholars were able to say otherwise if needed. Does that make sense?

Spoiler

I honestly believe that we need God. And I mean really need God. In all my stories so far, God has been an option, seen as better by some, but unneccasary by others. But that's not how it is at all. Imagine it like this: The world is like a cliff. You are standing on the edge and the whole thing is on fire. The flames are coming down on you. There is no escape. You can see that there's another cliff on the other side of a deep dark ravine and there's no fire over there. In fact, you see a pool of nice cool water, and just the sight of it makes you realize how thirsty you are. Your tongue is stuck to the roof of your mouth and you know you are going to die if you don't get over to the other side. But there's only one way across; Jesus. He is the bridge that gets you to God, he is the way. Without him, you will die of thirst or burn alive. There is no other way. Just like He said in the book of John, chapter 14 verse 6, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me." So yeah, I believe that we desperatly need God. He is not just there.

Does that make sense? Sorry if I offended anyone. I wasn't trying to be intolerant or anything. I was just stating what I believe. :)

 

So we are the essence of a god, the very creation of what a god is, but we are not gods and can not strive to be them?

I don't think you can really say that Creationsim or Evolution are sensible. There are ideas and theories, we have no answers only the questionsof our origins. I can't take the Bible to heart, personally, it's a good book for fables and so forth, but as the basis for a whole species creation and the word of a god we have never communicated with? I just can't take such a blind faith, it's too extreme for me.

The Bilbe has been translated (from its orignal language, to the modern day counterparts in English form) from its original Hebrew into Aramaic and Greek, then into Latin, then German, French and finally an original English translation, into King James interpretation which is probably the most wide spread one, and the version you're quoting. How can any book after so much change be true to the original text? Translating a modern day novel or script into a foreign language is tough these days, but a book over 2 millienium, into at least 6 root translations before the current model, I just can't believe that the original book is the same as the King James one. And Homer was the Author, his most famous pieces a two epic poems, Illiads and Odyssey, both are put forwrd as fiction and are based on the Trojan War, a true event that has historical records about. It does not attempt to be what the Bible is, they are not comparable.

I know the difficulty of knowing the original word of a religion, the religious text The Dao De Jing is around 3000 years old and originally written in Traditional Madarin (Chinese), to translate it into modern English is near impossible and in the end it is tough to understand it wholly in this form, but people try as they can to achieve this, the original word. I guess that's what faith is about.

I don't get how that joke proves a point. It just makes it sound that we use God's creation to our own end. Not that we are above him, but that we have the ability to use it, but God doesn't want to use what he has given us.

You can't claim where God is or isn't, we know nothing about him truely. The reason we question God's existence is becasue we can never tangibly interact with it in some way. We may have feelings about God's pressence, but nothing that is constant, it is only ever fleeting.

That story makes it sound that you either follow Jesus or die a horrible death. That is our only choice in life. I thought we were given free will by God, why would he take that away by making us choose between unwavering loyalty to Him or dying?

 

UGH! I wrote this whole long post to answer your questions and then my stupid computer totally crashed the internet! We have an annoying virus that constantly pops up at us and squeals like a pig and now it's made google stop working and it won't let me sign in to youtube. AND NOW THIS!!!! Alright, now that my ranting is over, I'll attempt to rewrite my post. :(

Spoiler

Yes, we are the essence of gods, the very copy of what a god is, but we can strive to be one, it's just we're not able to get there without help.

A lot of people believe that the Bible is translated from one language to the next, never reffering back to the original texts in Hebrew. Now, I don't know much about all the different translations, but I know for a fact that the NIV was not translated from the King James, or from Latin or French, but from the actual Hebrew manuscripts in an attempt to retain the authenticity. As for Homer's peices, I really don't know much about them, and shouldn't have used them as an example. Sorry for the confusion on my part. (BTW, I've been wanting to read his stuff; does anyone know if it's any good?)

Again, sorry if I was confusing or didn't explain my self properly. I'm still pretty new to the debate thing. :)

The joke was just my silly way of trying to say that no matter how smart we get, no matter how much we learn, we will never be able to be God. This was in response to Jet User's post that my analogy of a mother and her two year old child were not fitting because a child will grow up to outgrow their parents.

Well, we do have free will. That's why the world is such a messed up place. God gives us the ability and the intelligence to choose how we live. Some people choose to follow God's plan for their life, and some people choose to live for themselves. And trying to live without God ultimately leads to death. I'm sorry if I'm offending anybody, but that's how I believe. But God does let us choose wether or not we follow him. Does that make sense?

 

I had a lot of problems like that with my old PC, I use Microsoft Word, or Notepad if you don't have it to write really long posts before I copy and paste them to the forum. It reduces the headaches! : )

And let me guess, we need to follow God in order to receive this assistance? I don't know... that just seems counteractive for everything we were created as. Born with free will, express creativity, achieve our goals, dream of tomorrow. Is life as we know it not content enough for us? Sure there are bad events in your life, but they are meant to challenge you so you can overcome them and become stronger, wiser and more intelligent as a result. Will simply following God give us all? It seems too simple, too much of a shortcut.

I'm trying to point out the fact that words being translated can be changed dramatically. Languages aren't just the same words with different letters. Languages are more complex then that, there are masculine and feminine words in languages like French, which isn't in English, one word can be translated in two ways, for example, Virgin and Maiden in Hebrew I believe only have one word for both.
And as such, translating something that has had so many languages behind it, over thousands of years, I don't see how it can be true to the original book. But maybe the modern translation will clear things up.

The Odyssey must be a legendary poem for some reason, right? I've not read it, but i've heard you need to read between the lines and think about the words a bit. Only that way will you really see it for what it is and enjoy it.

But without free will we are simply slaves to others, whether for good or bad we have no choices. I personally believe that what makes us human is our ability to choose, to have free will, to take that away is to take away what we are as a whole species. I accept people agree and disagree, because that is their choice and belief, I even accept if people choose to be slaves, for that is ultimately their choice. But to have that free will taken away before you can choose what you want to do. So I agree, mainly.

And btw, Death is the end for every thing that lives. What begins must end. No matter your belief, I think that is more a factual then faithful statement. I understand the concept of immortality through faith, but I doubt it is in the way we perceive it. Immortailty is more then just living your life that you can't die, there is a more etheral side that we can't see and i don't know if we ever will before that day would come.

You're doing alright. Debating is mainly just explaining your point, and justifying it if you can. Others will try to challenge you, but that's the whole point of a devate, to challenge others, to see itf their view is strong enough to out last the questions. Just try and use stuff you're familiar with and can explain. Don't use examples, you can't defend (e.g. your Homer point)

 

lol, thanx for your tips on using word before posting and only using examples I can defend. I would do well to follow that advice. :)

And I think you've pretty much got a lot of what I was trying to say. The only thing I feel I need to clear up is this:

Spoiler

I do believe that following God helps you achieve goal, dream dreams, and express our creativity. It's like a paint brush. It has the potential to be great, it could very well be the brush that painted Mona Lisa, but it first must be held by the Artist. In the same way, I have the potential to be great, and my life be worthwhile, But by myself, I can't even make a shred of difference. I chose to let God use me as his paintbrush. As for it being too simple, that's really the beauty part. A lot of people think that in order to have God's help in your life, you have to do a whole bunch of really hard stuff first. You have to do this, or you have to stop doing that, or whatever. It's really not like that at all. All you have to do is believe. Really, believe. The Bible says in the book of Romans, chapter 10 veres 9; "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That pretty much is saying that all you have to do in order to recieve God's help with life is you just have to say that Jesus is God, and really believe it. Nothing else.

I hope that clears things up. :)