Implemented Gender Sender

Male or Female. Or Unspecified. Went completely under my radar until today, when a new user specified preferred pronouns. Non-binary gender options are a pretty wide-spread thing online now, no matter what anyone may think of the ideas and identities behind them. Dating sites have them, and so does Facebook.

There's a lot of Gender Identities. We don't have to have them all, if installed. I'd go for:

Trans-female
Trans-male
Androgynous

For a start. There's more, but as KHV is just Social Media, some aren't quite as necessary statements. Like, the various Kins. Or maybe you could just limit it to Kin. What I mean though is: This is about Gender, and not Sexual Orientation.

Pros	Cons
Inclusion!	Some may disagree based on their personal beliefs
Solidarity	Possible hazing and discrimination
Encourages acceptance in the community	Some Users may not take it seriously. eg: Posing as identities they are not in order to misrepresent those who do identify that way

If this is limited to what Xenforo boards offer as options, then it's fine. I just thought it would be nice for all members to be as open as they wish to be about their gender. Cis Males and Cis Females get to, after all. Everyone else kinda has to go with Unspecified. EDIT: Facebook has a neat: "Custom" feature. This has the Pro of including any and all Gender Identities, with the downfall of allowing someone to put something either random or inflammatory in place of it. Like how my location is not "Symphony of Sorcery", but I'm not mocking people who live there by putting that there.

 

As a friend to many non-binary and Trans kids, I'm am 100% in support of this idea. They, them, etc are grammatically correct pronouns for a singular noun, and more and more people are discovering their real identities as non-binary and what not.

So this gets a +1 from me

 

You guys know me so it'll come as no surprise that this is something I've wanted to do for a while. I've supported a number of suggestions on the Xenforo forums related to this, both in making the gender selection more inclusive and allowing users to specify their preferred pronouns, and I hope that one day there will be an official implementation.

I'm also a fan of Facebook's system; there are so many different gender identities out there that I think it'd be tough to create an absolute list -- obviously we could add a "my gender isn't listed here" option but I feel that can, by nature, other that gender. Unfortunately the binary gender system is pretty embedded in Xenforo, but @libregkd might be able to take a crack at it.

As for pronouns, those are easier because I don't believe they're used by the core system at all (and if they are, it seems best to simply change it to a neutral they/their, which would be easy and, correct me if I'm wrong, is considered an acceptable replacement). Other than that, it would be quite easy for me to add a field on member profiles where you can specify your preferred pronouns, and people can refer to that when they need to refer to you.

 

If I recall correctly, they are different, in a sense. Androgynous usually means "I possess both Female and Male characteristics in both appearance and/or personality", while Non-binary usually goes by "I'm not really a part of any of this". It's also different from just not adhering to established "Gender Roles". I'm Straight and Cis Male, but I can relate to many Female characters just as well as Male characters, for instance.

You?! The most conservative Conservative person ever? Like, the most racist, bigoted, insulting- Oh wait, I'm thinking of my aunt.

I figured you'd be on board. The only thing that made me weary was the fact that, yeah, as I mentioned, it might be locked by Xenforo.

Yeah, othering is kinda the problem with Unspecified. Here's hoping for Libregkd.

A new section would be a great way around it! Sure, it's a little hidden, but at least it would be there. Unfortunately, I might be prone to goofing around there, like I mentioned might happen in the Cons. A little goofing. I can't resist requesting people refer to me as "Your Royal Highness" along with "He/Him/Male Pronouns"!

Thank you, Misty. I did figure ahead of time you'd be on board, but it's nice to know some progress is intended.

 

I think this is referring to me, if not, then I apologize.

As a non binary person myself, although this would be a wonderful idea, I fear the backlash it would receive from the transphobic people on here. Some people will point and laugh and accuse others of just wanting to be a special snowflake.

On the flip side, it would definitely educate said transphobes. A custom gender idea would definitely help others feel comfortable.

 

@libregkd has been working on this and seems to be having success (if he doesn't mind me saying lol). How it looks now is that we'll be doing something similar to Facebook, as I said -- you'll have a blank field you can use to fill in your gender identity, and autocomplete options will appear with suggestions (which you don't have to use if you don't feel they accurately describe you). We're working on a list to use for those autocomplete suggestions, but because I am cis I think it best to open the list up to the people of KHV to look over. Here's what I have so far:

• Agender / Genderless
• Androgynous
• Bigender
• Cisgender Male
• Cisfender Female
• Genderfluid
• Genderqueer
• Male
• Non-binary
• Third gender
• Transgender Male
• Transgender Female
• Two Spirit
• Female
• Questioning
• Unspecified

Please feel free to suggest things to add or remove, as well as any changes to what I have -- even if they're minor.

Because gender currently appears in your message user info (the little block beside your posts with your username, avatar, message count, etc.), the value you fill in will be listed there. I have a neat idea for listing pronouns with that as well, but we'll wait for the gender field to be done first.

Edit: Allowing fill-in options on both gender and pronoun fields obviously opens things for abuse or people joking around with it, but I feel that's a small price to pay for having more inclusive systems here. I do urge everyone, especially cis people, to take things seriously (and want to add that people already mess about with the gender field).

 

*cough* @Llave *cough*

Will these appear on 8.0 or will you wait until 9.0 like with the post ratings?

Also, question: How do you know what's what? Because I hardly have a clue what any of these mean, so leaving mine on just male is likely fine.

 

This is unrelated. I never provide ETAs.

I debate on leaving the simple male/female options, honestly. I pulled the list from an unrelated thing I was working from that had a "check all that apply" gender question. With the field, I will probably either find a page that explains gender identity or give an explanation myself. You should read up in these if you don't know what they mean, particularly on being cisgender as that's what you are considered.

 

I was hoping to not really get into this here, as it's probably a topic better suited to Discussion and sort of derails the conversation from the gender field onto larger issues; however, I also recognize that it's probably not an opinion that only Arch is holding and thus probably deserves to be addressed. I'll also start out with the enormous disclaimer that I am cisgender and therefore no sort of authority on these matters; if I post any misinformation or misconceptions, I apologize and encourage others to correct me.

The argument behind asking people who identify as their assigned sex to use the term "cisgender male" instead of "male" (or female) is that not doing so 'others' other gender identities. In a way it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, or at least, we live in a society where it will make you uncomfortable. But that discomfort pales in comparison to how it feels to, for example, constantly have to identify yourself as a transgender man. It's a privilege for you to be able to go through your life simply identifying as male and not having to prefix it with an adjective. Not using 'cisgender' implies that anything other than it is abnormal. Is cis considered the default in our society? Yes, it is, in the same way that heterosexuality is -- that does not make it okay, and identifying as cisgender rather than simply as male is a small way to defeat that normative.

Furthermore, it's somewhat of an educational tool. Getting people like you, who have never had to identify their gender, to use the term cis opens them to the world of gender identity. I think it's important to leave Male and Female as options if, for example, a transgender woman obviously would like to identify as a woman, but does not wish to be out publicly as trans, whatever her reasons may be.

On the note of the term, I'm sorry if it sounds "weird" to you but I hardly think that's a compelling reason not to use it. More importantly, it's not a word that anyone pulled out of their ass. It originates from the Latin prefix cis-, which means "to/this the near side." Given that your username is also a Latin word (though I believe it originally derives from Greek), I imagine that you're down to clown with Latin.

Many of these terms absolutely have overlap, and I cannot pretend to know why a person would prefer one over the other. That they find a distinguishing factor, or that one simply feels or sounds better to them, is reason enough for them to be able to select one and not the other.

Two-spirit is a culturally distinct Native American term and is documented within many Native American tribes. It's considered appropriation for non-Native American people to identify as two-spirit. It's about as hippy dippy as warbonnets.

You're basically saying that you think it's okay to erase a person's identity as well as creating a false equivalence between sex and gender. They're different terms for a reason. On most parts of the internet (this site, at least), and probably most of the time in your actual life, it's frankly none of your business what is and isn't between other people's legs -- and that is all sex describes. It's a scientific term. When we begin to place that in a social / civilized context, we use gender because that term covers the person's sociological identity rather than their biological. Consider a trans man who has not had sex reassignment surgery or hormone replacement therapy -- does that mean you're going to continue calling and considering them a woman, because sexually, they still are? To draw a comparison to sexuality, as I can use a personal example there and therefore speak with more authority: I'm bisexual. If I am never with a woman, romantically or sexually, get married to a guy and stay with him for the rest of my life, does that make me not bisexual?

Language is one of our primary tools for communicating with one another, for starters, and that goes even more so on the internet, where it's often all we have. It is a privilege of yours to not have to care about labels or pronouns, but they mean a hell of a lot. A number of cases of trans teens committing suicide have gained media recognition recently, one of which was a dear friend of a member here. Almost all of them have cited being routinely misgendered and having their gender identity ignored as one of the major reasons, if not the, behind their suicide. Be aware that you are contributing to that, and stop.


Ultimately if it means so much to you and you think I'm (and everyone in this thread) is full of ****, you can go ahead and fill the field in as 'Male'. The only difference to you is that you now have to hit four keys on your keyboard rather than click with your mouse. But I urge you to get informed and stop being part of the problem here... and one that we're absolutely going to put effort into correcting on KH-Vids. Any site on the internet, or space in the world, should aim to create a comfortable and inclusive environment -- and as privileged people, we must put effort towards that.

 

I disagree with having different categories of male and female. A while ago, I remember discussing something like this with a friend of mine, who is transgender, and she said that having different "males" and "females" for trans people and cis people really annoyed her, because it made her feel like she was different from a "real female" and that it defeated the purpose of having more inclusive gender choices. (Obviously not an exact quote as this convo happened a while ago).

 

^This is kind of what I feel, but at the same time it's more or less to educate as opposed to genuinely separating. It's more or less "I was born and ifentify as" instead of "I was born as but identify as"

 

Just throwing in my $0.02, but it is going to be unnecessarily hard to try and please all parties here. I am 100% for making adjustments to the site that make people in this particular case feel more comfortable and welcome, however debating 'x' vs 'y' as the "least offensive"/"most accepted" way of more or less pleasing everyone will result in this thread never being resolved.

Again I am totally for making people feel good, and changes like this have the potential to be really awesome. Just know you cannot possibly please everyone.

Sorry if that was off topic or not want wanted

 

Well that's the idea behind having it as a field you can type in rather than a radio select. If someone isn't comfortable putting something more specific than "male," for whatever their reasons are, they can absolutely continue to simply use male. I said before that's a reason I felt it important to keep male/female on the autocomplete list, if for example a trans woman doesn't wish to publicly state she's trans but still wants to list herself as female -- she can, and nobody will bat an eye. The list I posted was for auto complete suggestions -- not sure if I made that clear. If someone's gender identity isn't included on the list and they suggest its addition down the line, it's quite easy to add.

The nice thing about the way @libregkd has gone about this is there's zero disruption to most users. We install the add-on he created and your existing Gender is placed in the field; if you don't wish to change it or make it more specific, you don't have to. If your Gender is currently Unspecified, the field is left blank and it won't appear places. However, it still allows people to be more specific, have a more accurate gender identity, and makes KHV more inclusive.

 

I'm going to formally apologize for opening the flood gates on this one. Even if an apology is non-requisite. I'd love to take responsibility for opening this option up and giving it newground. I'm glad it's being worked on.

While I agree it is sem-superfluous to put "Cisgender" in front of Male and Female, some people should honestly give it a try. I'm going to put Male, rather than Cis Male, because I feel I do not yet need to make a statement with my gender. If problems were to incite between divided users, Hell yes I'm going to put Cis Male. I don't consider other identities as Others. I do believe, in that same vein of understanding, that Cis Male and Male are the same thing; the same way Transmale and Male are the same.

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Somewhere in History, somebody said "Let's learn a valuable lesson from these cultures our ancestors socially disadvantaged so their lessons expand; let the world be as one", and then another said, "Hey, man, check out this cool, feathery hat! Woo! Wawawawa! How."

On the bisexual thing: Well, I mean, Alan Cumming, the Scottish-borne actor probably most famous for his role in The "Spy Kids" series, is Bisexual, but when he married a man, he stated "I guess the Pendulum has swung!". Humorous. He's a Humorist, as well as a great Dramatist. But, it's also exclusive to himself, and anyone who looks at it the same way. I believe you'd continue to be Bisexual, because you have that sense of attraction, but, if in a non-open relationship with a man, that's really more Sexual Orientation than Gender Indentification.

Language. Exactly. Biology and Language are on the side of the Identification Revolution. That's why is well-reasoned for anyone, of any Creed or Belief, to come to grips with the change. Because it is observational, and it really is a happening circumstance.

At the end of the day, none of it really matters. The same way your ancestors' geological approximation from the equator matters. Except, currently, people are the targets of violent bigotry; because of Race, Sexual Orientation, Religious Beliefs, and Gender Identification. One day, that won't be a problem. A Cis individual putting "Male" isn't going to be entitlement, it's just going to be making a less scientific statement. It's not going to be a nightmare if that totally cute, sweet, caring girl you met at the bar grew up with the name "Fred" until the age of 16 and she didn't tell you this until after copulation. Girls playing with matchbox cars and boys playing with Little Ponies (Just, please, don't put them in jars full of mysterious... liquids...it's happened...) And the world will continue to turn.