When They Cry (Sound Novels)

Spoiler

The old one got deleted due to the attack on the site, so I'm remaking this -- When They Cry general discussion thread. Any fans here willing to discuss favorite characters, theories, etc?

IMPORTANT: Due to the nature of the series, please use Spoiler Tags as shown below for the benefit of all fellow readers, even for things you may consider minor:

PHP:

(Episode, Chapter title, or general subject)
[SPOILER]Spoilery content goes here~[/SPOILER]

For example:

Code:

(Common knowledge)
[SPOILER] People die. [/SPOILER]

A single slip-up without a spoiler tag could ruin the series for everyone, so please be very careful!

For those new to the series wondering what this is all about, it's a series of murder mystery sound novels (Think visual novels, but more focus on sound/music than art, and no hentai in these) known as Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Umineko no Naku Koro ni. The names of those might ring a bell due to the anime/manga based off of them, but these are the original source material. I would say more, but it's hard to without spoiling it -- I even hesitate at posting the Wikipedia page here for that reason.

I will update this post later with more information on the series like reading order and how to obtain them/legal sample editions, but for now I'm being lazy because I had to remake the thread. =P

 

[/QUOTE] . .

 

Hokay I'm going to try to remember everything else that just disappeared off the face of the earth...

(EP6)

Spoiler

We had the 'Erika = 18th Person = Doesn't exist' idea, aka 'I = X = 0', Jessica the Candlestick, and... Something else. :| And were trying to apply it to keep Erika's actions from causing her own logic error, I believe.

I came up with a very sketchy instant-solution idea that Erika could get away with not existing as a piece but existing as a player by saying that every time Erika is said in red when referring to who went in or out of the closed rooms, it means her piece. Then there was the 'Erika is someone's split personality,' most probably Jessica, akin to Shkanon.

You addressed how Erika scattered when she was denied, and in the post that nobody got to see before it was unceremoniously deleted, I basically asked what the difference between death and 'scattering' was. In EP5, Battler 'died,' which was said to be because he 'stopped thinking,' so is Erika's/EP4!Battler's situation in any way the same, or are they two different concepts entirely?

Due to a massive computer crash the other day I don't have EP6 on my computer anymore, so I can't check if I make mistakes here -- Apologies in advance,
I argued in my head about this for a long time after this happened in the EP, I remember. I tried tons of things to figure out a way for Kanon to escape.

After he repeated the names in the next room over in red, Erika then asked Battler to repeat that Everyone else is in the Cousins' room. He did, after some hesitation. Directly following this, Erika sealed both rooms... Okay so far?

When Battler hesitated, the narrative said that had she asked him to repeat the specific names in the Cousins' room, he would have done it without thinking much about it. That means that he would have had to say Kanon was in the Cousins' room in red, which struck me because that would make Shkanon very difficult.
More than that, though. From that point on, it was impossible for Kanon to get out of the room. If Erika was standing directly in front of that door, drooling in anticipation with duct tape in hand, I can't see how Kanon would escape from the room between the time Battler said 'Everyone else is in the Cousins' room' and her sealing it, especially since the seals on the Cousins' room were never broken, just the ones on the next room over. Again, with Shkanon Kanon could escape from the next room over and save Battler by being Shannon, but how could Battler even think about saying Kanon was in the Cousins' room if he wasn't and was actually a part of Shannon? And to make it more confusing, as you noted, Shannon can only refer to Shannon, not Kanon.

This brings up another problem later at the duel between Erika and Beatrice. The names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people. So according to this, Kanon cannot be Shannon.

I agree that in order to save Battler Kanon would have had to slip out of the room between Erika sealing it and Battler saying everyone else was in there... But it's such a small window of time, and Dlanor declared the seals effective. So I don't see how he could have done it -- this is one of the few times where all evidence points to Shkanon being a complete lie, and it's one of the times where I felt like it was needed for an explanation. Could he have jumped out of the window while she was sealing the door?

I think a major problem is the lack of a true 'detective character' in EP6. We saw that scene from a fantasy perspective; Erika instantly sealed the door and windows with Dlanor's help. But in real life, that would take quite some time. Just how much time did it really take, and could Kanon have slipped out in that time?

EDIT: Also this just came to me, but if the seals on the next room over were broken, isn't it entirely possible someone else escaped for a different reason? And if so, who and what?

 

. .

 

We're in the same boat since I'm writing this at 4:30 AM myself xD. So sorry if I sound stupid although I sort of feel like I always do, always asking questions haha ~

EDIT: Halfway through writing this my brain literally shut down, I'm writing gibberish at this point. Just a warning...

(EP6)

Spoiler

Ah okay, just the way that scene was presented made me a little confused on that.

As for Erika, Shannon is already suspected of being DID meido culprit, making her Erika at the same time would be... Er.. Interesting, granted if Shkanon turns out to be a big fat red herring it'd be fine. I can see the others though.

I agree, George and Shannon are really suspicious, especially together. George is always going on and on about how he'd do anything for Shannon's sake.
Since EP6's first twilight is a big fake, though, I don't see what their motive could be. The given motive is that it was a prank to get the better of Erika and her snobby attitude (if Erika is just someone's alt personality though, who knows what it really is), so is the 'First Twilight culprit' here just referring to the mastermind behind the plan? Or whoever beheaded the victims later (that is, whoever represented Erika -- could it be more than one person)?

So in the same way that Erika is represented by someone, 'Beato,' the mastermind on the island, is paying people to do her bidding. I'm going to go out on a limb here and theorize that saying that the gold of the Golden Land belongs to Beato probably refers to them either having influence within the Ushiromiya family or having solved the Epitaph and therefore they own the gold. Otherwise gold/Golden Land is more figurative than I thought and it's something else.
As for Battler being a part of the fake death plots in 5/6, the Game Masters changed for those games and it's possible this meant a slight change of motive should the rules allow it. In EP5 Meta-Battler realized he was always left alive at the end because Beato wanted to 'show him something,' but Beato was no longer overseeing those games. Thinking strictly from the game board perspective, though, I guess we'll have to wait and see what her goals are because my mind just went blank and I can't think of anything at all.

Again with the switch in GMs; I can't help but think the significant change here -- that is, Battler's involvement in the plot -- has something to do with it. Probably, it's not literal but figurative and I just can't look that far into it. xD
Coming up with random stuff as I type at this point, but assuming Meta is all figurative, a change in GMs means a significant change in the game board, even if they understand the 'truth' of the game perfectly (Er, was EVA-Beatrice the GM in EP3? If so all of this is moot...). Probably, then, the mastermind's motive has to be different enough so that Piece!Battler would agree to be involved [in the fake plot], if he wasn't involved without being aware anyway.
So,
1. Is a change in GM equivalent to a change in a major piece, i.e. the culprit or mastermind behind the fake plot? Or just their motive?
2. Does a change in said person/piece or motive allow for different groups of people to agree in involvement in either plot?
3. Are both plots connected, is one plot there to cover up for the other, or are they entirely unrelated (even carried out by different people)?

As for Shkanontrice, I agree it's certainly tempting. If I were to believe it though, I'd rather believe Shannon/Kanon were alternate personalities but Shannon was aware of what she was doing as Beatrice than three alternate personalities, myself.
And even though EP6 is practically all SHKANON SHKANON SHKANON[trice], that one scene where Battler would have repeated that Kanon and Shannon were in separate rooms still bugs the hell outta me. Wondering if it was a mistake on Ryu's part or if I'm remembering wrong or something.

 

. .

 

IT'S BEEN LIKE A MONTH
I've already spewed excuses at you all over your profile so I'll spare you this time
Also beware, I was especially tired when I wrote this...

(EP6)

Spoiler

I really like your theory on the fake plot, it makes sense for all games through EP5 which is something I've always struggled with, but even though it doesn't really apply to EP6 it sort of makes me think. EP6 was a fake plot in its entirety until Erika decided to behead everyone playing dead. It was the first time someone behind the 'real plot' was exposed.
If we want to solve EP6, we just need to think about what we already know based off of this theory. This way, In the end, it doesn't really matter who it was that started actually murdering people, just that they start.

GMs can play the game in a way others wouldn't play it, but they can't make their own rules. Is that basically what you're saying?

So we've got:
Plot X: Fake murder plot
Plot Y: Real murder plot

Group X: Group that knows about Plot X
Group Y: Kinzo Conspiracy Group (there's no way to only know of Plot Y once the murders kick off), may know everything or nothing at all
Group XY: Group that knows about both
Group Z: Group that knows about neither.

EP6's scenario was this:
- No real plot to begin with/plot doesn't happen to begin with, everyone plays dead
- Someone decides to make sure they're dead and kill everyone off 'again'

We can interpret this more than one way of course: We could say that EP6 reveals how it works every time, or that EP6 is just one possibility.

If we were to think of it as the former, we're always going to start with a fake plot. Someone (or perhaps two or three people) finds the corpses. This person/group probably has something to gain from these deaths, so to make sure they're really dead they kill them, i.e. crush their face like the people in the shed in EP1.
I also wonder if there is anyone who started in Group X who could move to Group XY and keep their mouth shut about it, as their fake murder getting turned into a real murder sounds like something they would try to stop.
I'm going to assume that Group X is always larger than just the people playing dead because of the Witch's Epitaph stuff. Like you said, it's just a performance for Battler or Erika. The other Group X members, unaware that the people involved in the plot are really dead, carry out the plan as usual while the Group XY members go around murdering anyone playing dead.
What I don't get is where things stop from the fake plot and turn into just a real plot, because surely it can't go on through the end without people realizing that something has gone wrong. Perhaps people in Group XY get suspicious enough to start murdering people they suspect of being part of the plot before they even play dead.

If there's a bomb on the island it of course it explains how everyone always dies at the end, but somewhere along the line the fake plot snowballs into a real murder and things get disorganized behind the scenes before that happens.

Then there's the other scenario not presented in EP6, Plot X and Plot Y exist/happen at the same time (Plot X perhaps happening as a result of Plot Y, the inverse to the above). If I wasn't exhausted I'd try to type something more up about this but there's any of number of ways for this to happen and the result is the same.

And geez, the Literature subforum is pretty inactive. This had barely been moved down.

 

No comment on your theory just yet. Just dropping in to say I'm playing EP7, and this screen appeared. I haven't progressed further, but I am immensely happy already.

[EP7]

Spoiler

I don't know who this guy is, but he seems to use Dine.

 

Ah yes, (Minor EP7 'spoiler')

Spoiler

the new character that everyone loves xD.

I finally got EP7 on my computer, so I'm playing through the partial patch right now. I was a little skeptical, but so far I think that it's even better with a proper translation than it was on the stream. Really good. Though, for me to really form an opinion on the EP I'll have to wait for the full translation, but... Eh. I'm enjoying it so far. Have you finished playing through the translated portion?

Nice avatar/signature, by the way. ~

 

I finished it on the day it came out. Which, rather fittingly, was Halloween.

[EP7 Partial Patch]

Spoiler

I'm rather disappointed that it has confirmed Shkanon, although I don't see how it would have been a game-over for Wright.

Now what's happened to Battler? Why is Beato dead? Which Beato is dead? Castiglioni, Ushiromiya or Shkanontrice? All three? Where is Lambda? What is the 'larger cat box'? Why doesn't Shkanon recognise Lion? Is it all a farce?

 

Well, my computer crashed again last night (power outage screwed it up. I don't know either D8) and EP7 is now gone -- before I had the chance to finish the partial patch xD. I'll get it back eventually, but for now I'm probably not going to be able to make theories very... efficiently without functioning off of my months-old memory of the badly-translated ATLAS stream.

[EP7 Partial Patch]

Spoiler

For some reason however I never remember even thinking about where Lambda was and it's been so long I can't remember if/when she shows up. Good question, though. @__@ Also, all the Beatos are indeed getting confusing.

Just a question, since I didn't get to finish the partial patch before my computer flipped, how far story-wise did the patch go?

When I manage to get the EP back in working order I'll be able to toss theories & questions out as well xD but for now I'm kind of useless.
Feel free to throw your theories out there though; since I have played (watched) the episode once I don't mind spoilers, and I won't spoil you. Er, unless you want me to.

Which I really really doubt, haha.

 

Heh, yeah. No spoilers for me please.

[EP7 partial]

Spoiler

How is Beatrice pronounced?! There's Kinzo, who screams Beatoriche, Beato, Gaap's Riche, and now Castiglioni is saying that she wants to be called 'Bice", which doesn't fit with Beatoriche.

The partial patch goes until the gold is dragged out of the submarine. Then it ends.

 

OH GOD I JUST EDITED YOUR POST BY ACCIDENT. I tried to hit reply and hit edit, sorry ._. .
Yeah sorry this might take a while o__o.
Don't worry it's back now. >>

[EP7 Partial Patch]

Spoiler

Oh interesting, the patch goes farther than I expected. And I thought the pronounciation was bee-a-tri-che, as she's named after the Beatrice in the Divine Comedy, which is Italian. And I always invisioned Bice as Bee-che (Bice was the nickname Dante supposedly called his love Beatrice).

 

This thread definitely needs more than two people. I won't be able to discuss much since I haven't started reading the Answer Episodes yet but I'm going to as soon as my school year ends which is like in less than a month :D

Spoiler

From what I know, Beatrice is pronounced the Italian way like Stardust said. The kana that makes up the name ベアトリーチェ is be-a-to-rii-chi-e which sounds way more like the Italian pronunciation than the English which sounds something like be-a-tris

 

Still trying to figure out how the mod controls work, eh? Don't ban anyone. That'd be A Bad Thing™.

[EP7 Partial]

Spoiler

I thought it was Beatoriichie, but then Bice appeared, and I couldn't figure out how to say that. If it's just biiche, then that's simple enough.

So what has Bern done in terms of a cat box? I'd initially suspect she made the entire world into a box, but then again, Shkanon doesn't recognise Lion, which is really weird. That leads me to suspect that it's all a farce.

 

Yaaaay more people! <3
Don't worry, we're super careful about using spoiler tags, so you can discuss them with us without getting spoiled 8D.

Yeahhh, thankfully the buttons for things of that severity are not conveniently located right next to the reply button, so everyone should be safe xD.


[EP7 Partial Patch]

Spoiler

A fair number of people are suspecting that it's all a farce, actually, especially considering that it's Bern we're dealing with. I'm pretty stumped myself, but the apparent lack of Battler is pretty suspicious too. Perhaps, considering the unreliable nature of the narration, some of what we've seen is real and some of it isn't, even if it wasn't explicity presented as a 'fantasy scene'.

 

[EP7 Partial Patch]

Spoiler

I've decided that Van Dine's rules should apply to the rest of the game. Or rather, only those of them that have been spoken in red. I think the beginning of EP7 was a message from Ryuukishi to the readers, "If your guess involves Shkannontrice as a culprit, rethink it." It's his reply to the most popular theory. It seems as though he's given the readers one last chance to solve the mystery, before he tears the guts out of it.

So let's analyse. We've got a lot of information, after all.

One of the main XYZ rules is that there is a fake plot. Evidence is how Battler screams in EP5, and the entire setup for EP6. The other rule is that Shkanontrice is (probably) canon.

Okay, so let's see. When do the actual murders start? In EP1, Battler sees all the first twilight corpses fully. I'm going to trust that the Battlercam can identify them as dead. However in EP1, we also know that Kanon fakes his death, with Nanjo's and Jessica's support. This part is giving me a massive headache in terms of motivation. Kanon can't kill anyone due to the red. So he's doing it for some other reason. To do detective work in secret? Ugh.

 

I got some Umineko news! I don't know if I should put this here or in General Game Chat so move it if you feel it's necessary Stardust.

First things first, the title of the next episode will be

Spoiler

Twilight of the Golden Witch

More info on the Episode 8 can be found here: Link <- There are spoilers in there so you have been warned.

And the second thing is that a fighting game is being made for the series

[video=youtube;5MTmMprmZIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MTmMprmZIw[/video]

I'm really hoping that the Witch Hunt or some other group would translate this as well.

Ryukishi talked about the game in his diary. He said that he has been wanting to do the fighting game for a long time and started working on it with BT.
He also said that he is still writing EP8 and that he will work hard from now on.

 

A few days ago, EP7 translation patch 2 came out. This time it goes to 50%.

 

(EP7 Partial >50%)

Spoiler

AHH WAIT WAIT MY BRAIN CANNOT KEEP UP. How do we know about Kanon?
But the real murders probably start at different times during each game, we just have to know the dividing line, right? So, probably,
- Even if it is shown they are killed in a fantasy scene, they may not be dead (EP6).
- If they are killed in a comfortable place (Found dead on their guestbed, indoors lying on the carpet, etc.) it is likely they are faking, esp. if the cause of death is something small or unknown or their death is not confirmed in red.
- If they are found dead with very severe injuries or somewhere uncomfortable (i.e. George's corpse lying in the rain in EP4), it's more likely they are actually dead.

So at what point in each game do we see a big difference in fatal injuries and locations?
As for Kanon, I dunno where we got that theory (I have a feeling I'm forgetting something lol), but he could have been in on the fake plot, perhaps. As he is a servant I'm not sure though.

I think it's good here, it relates to the series after all. Feel free to make a separate thread for the fighting game in the General Game Chat section too though, if you like 8O . Really interesting news, I'm especially looking forward to the fighting game, but also
(EP8 Title, Current News)

Spoiler

I'm bracing myself for Twilight jokes >>;. And did you see the new portrait for EP8? HOLY WOW IS IT AWESOME. I've also heard that you can make choices in EP8, which is exciting. I have high expectations for the finale!

Yeah, I just ran across it on the WH website today, haven't gotten around to downloading it yet though. Did you play through it yet? Are you liking the Episode?