NSFW: Should women be in the military?

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by Sara, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. Sara Tea Drinker

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    WARNING: This thread WILL BE ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE!!! If you're not comfortable with that, please don't go any further. Thank you. I do have clearance from Plumenkranze to post this. Don't go into too much graphical detail also. Thank you. IF YOU DO GO INTO DETAILS, POST SPOILER/WARNING TAGS ABOUT THE TOPIC, BE CONSIDERATE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SENSITIVE TO THIS TOPIC.

    Sexism aside, which is NOT the reason I brought it up...

    I saw on the news today that there's a bill trying to be passed where all sexual assaults would be handled by the U.S. Judicial system. For people who don't know: All military crimes are usually handled by a military court, it's rare, if ever, that a case is handled outside of that jurisdiction.

    The problem is that for at least a decade women have been sexually abused/assaulted by their superiors who are men. Being a non-military person myself, I can't say how far it has gone, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has gone as far as it can, and I have heard women being sexually used to have favors granted for them. I.E.: Easier patrols. Don't quote me on that, I just heard it.

    So I'm wondering: Should women be allowed in the military? Should this be one area where women shouldn't be allowed due to what has happened so far?

    I am a woman, and being honest: I have had a past of sexual abuse in my life. I still hate mentioning it, I still hate thinking about it, and it has scarred me from it probably forever. I can't imagine what it's like for these women going through this in the military and the soldiers walking away with a slap on the wrist for their actions. I do support the armed troops, and I know there's a lot of good things our troops do, but I also know there's a lot of dark things that happen also. It's all over the world, but this is something that could be prevented with just the right actions happening in our own country, and I find it disgusting.

    I remember I was talking to a buddy of mine on the 360, he is training to be a Naval Submarine officer and we got into a friendly debate about this subject. I asked him out of curiosity if he believed women should be on subs with the men. He said fully 100%, I disagreed with him and said that women should be able to be on subs, but just the women should be on there. I was thinking about the close confines and the way issues can get rapidly out of control. I never forgot what he said, though I'll change some of the wording due to where I'm posting: "I would never want a bunch of emotional women in charge of a nuclear sub who can get pissed easily and destroy the whole world."
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  2. Calxiyn Keyblade Master

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    Honestly, whatever you go there is going to be sexual abuse, military, hospitals, in the business world etc. Especially in the business world, it's dog eat dog, so I would bet that women are letting themselves be used to get up higher on the food chain. That doesn't make it right though. The real problem is having the Military court handle it. It's almost like, how police officers now are getting away with a lot because they're police officers, it's a bias thing. Someone who has a higher status in the Military or anywhere for that better, could easily have a judge be bias towards them.

    They should try to keep tabs on this stuff more, but it isn't just in the military, this stuff could be happening just about anywhere. So I sort of disagree but at the same time, I get what you mean.
     
  3. LARiA Twilight Town Denizen

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    In short: Yes. Treat the problem at its cause, don't cater to it or work around it. The men responsible should be held responsible and put to trial, women should be able to possess any job they desire regardless of the possible detriment that might occur to their person-- which they would have probably given thought to already, and considered thoroughly. Is it terrible that women face greater threat of sexual harassment than men in the work force? Certainly, but arguing that they should be segregated from the men and/or disallowed from pursuing that career path is extremely counter-progressive.
     
  4. Peace and War Bianca, you minx!

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    I may probably ramble here, but I've researched this subject a while ago and always thought about women in military, so ignore me if I sound preachy or swear. Trigger warnings and so on. I'm not going to be caeful on a serious subject.

    Women are no different in human culture when it comes to military capability than men in the modern day. Even in ancient battle, trained military women were as effective as men, in perhaps different areas of expertise. We are equal, because we are all bloody human. Men might be on average stronger, but soldiers don't necessarily need to be bodybuilders, hell not all men have the physical capability or physique to become soldiers. If a woman can meet the requirements of an entrants exam, handle the training and pass, what's the problem? Sexism still in place, unfortunately, that has little practical use in a battle or war. Some women see applying as acitvely trying to defy their gender roles:
    Source: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20430897?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103681545263

    Sexual abuse in military history against women is common. But sexual abuse is as common against men, maybe more because men have been more frequent in violent events. Sexual abuse against civilian women is far more common, and worse for the because they have no training to defend themselves compared to the soldiers. Throughout many tribes, and even more recently in WW2 countries, women were trained in a similar fashion to men in order to defend their home country in case of an invasion. The concealment of knives or daggers along with submission holds and other techniques in order to disable or kill opponents, primarily men.

    The potential of sexual abuse is seen as a sore subject in the military, when it only truly matters after the fact. During the act of being raped behind enemy lines, the last worry many women have is feelings of violation. The instinct of survival is crucial at that point, and if you want to survive, you'll deal with it later and focus on the situation at hand, which all soldiers are/should be taught. An account of such an experience:
    Source: http://www.ambrosiasw.com/forums/index.php?s=ec38e9ce59c7388c185485da75495be7&showtopic=40740

    Also, men get raped by allied and enemy officers too. Women are more prime targets when there of course, but the more inclusive women are in military service, the likelihood this will decrease. Plenty of women join the military fully aware of this possibility, but they do it anyway. Why? Well it's all individual, but clearly the want to serve is greater than their fear of sexual harassment, even if they wished it would stop and still fight back against it.

    In history, women have had an increasingly significant roles in the military and decision of country wide issues:
    Boudicca, her husband murdered, her daughters raped, and herself flogged by Romans who had conquered Britain. When she rebelled, she struck respect and fear into the whole of the Roman Empire, where Italian culture still respects her today as one of their toughest and most fearsome foes.
    Sorghaghtani Beki controlled the Mongol Empire for years, having power over all the armies and generals that invaded everywhere from China to Russia, becoming arguably one of the most powerful woman in history.
    Joan of Arc helped bring independence from the English Monarchy to France, leading to end the Hundred Year War by purposefully leading men into battle, inspiring a nation that after almost a century had lost morale and the want to fight.
    Annie Oakley trained thousands of women in the ways of the rifle, creating a detachment of female marksman and she was arguably the greatest marksman of her time and possibly history.

    Women can be as diverse as men in society. Meaning military service is nothing new for them if they applied themselves. There are as many great historical female warriors, soldiers and fighters in history as men. If you want to fight, you can fight. Train, succeed, fight, whatever, let them all do it if they pass the regs. This isn't a worthwhile issue these days. We're in a world that fighting requires good eyesight, a steady hand and a trigger finger. We're not battling with swords, physical strength matters little more than to carry equipment. If streets burn and the bodies pile up, your sex won't matter in a war zone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  5. Menos Grande Kingdom Keeper

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    My opinion is that in times of peace, no one should be forced to serve in the military (so only if you apply to it), but at times of war men and women both should serve, your friend's comment doesn't makes sense, like some one would bomb another submarine because their are on their period. Statistically speaking men are usualy more prone to violence in driving and other aspects of civil life, so one should expect that statisticaly women will be equally more pacifist in chief positions, being emotional isn't the same as being violent, violent people are violent even if they do not "lose their heads" while being violent, if not there wouldn't be sadics and psychopaths.
    The rape is a problem, but it will happen no matter if women are or not in the military, is something that we should try to educate the whole society about so that the next generation does better than this one.
    Also no power should be able to judge its own, this always leads to corruption.
     
  6. Patman Bof

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    Gotta love the assumption that the victims are necessarilly women. Also gotta love the assumption that the abusers are necessarilly men.

    Look, that kind of career attracts a specific type of personality, and it' s definitely the kind that needs to be watched. It' s the whole who watches the watchmen issue. I don' t expect the military' s culture of secrecy to disappear anytime soon, letting the watchmen watch the watchmen would be a ****ing travesty.
     
  7. Laurence_Fox Chaser

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    [[Goddamnit people. Would it kill you to use trigger warnings? How hard it is to say 'Oh, there's going to be talk about rape here'? ]]

    I'm not going to deny that men are victims of rape and sexual abuse. However, the social stigma about a man admitting that he's a victim comes into play a lot. Also, men are conditioned that they're supposed to enjoy a woman's attention in a female assaulting a male scenario. The same way women are often conditioned that they're not supposed to enjoy sex. Women are supposed to be pure, delicate flowers. Men are supposed to be creatures of pure testosterone.

    Rape is a traumatic experience for anyone. It is a violation of the most personal nature. Oftentimes done by a person you trust than by a random stranger. In this case, it could be a commanding officer or a fellow soldier that you share quarters with. People who are supposed to be serving alongside beside you and protecting you.
    And it leaves a person scarred for years after the event. Sometimes their entire lives they live with the spiritual/emotional/mental scars long after the physical aspects have healed.

    [[Speaking from an asexual standpoint, we are often threatened with rape to 'correct' us. Because the desire to have sex is part of being human and if a human doesn't want to have sex, then they must be broken and have to be 'fixed' or 'cured'. If a person does not want to have sex, forcing them into it is not going to change their outlook.]]

    Personally I would really love it if women could serve equally in the military with men. Women have been awesome in the military in the past. They served as snipers in the Former Soviet Union and women have served in both World Wars. Though more on a domestic level in WW1.

    I think in the case of sexual assaults, that the responsible parties should be held accountable, regardless of their identifying sex. But with the fact that most rapes go unreported for whatever reason, be it that the victim was threatened to not tell or that they don't want to make waves. Nothing will change unless our attitudes about a lot of important issues are changed. How we treat rape and sexual assault is one of them. Because last I checked, people still use the word 'rape' in the wrong ways.
     
  8. Sara Tea Drinker

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    In my first post, I said I got the approval of an admin and posted a warning as my first line. I also asked him to check it and if he thought it wasn't enough, he was free to change it. I apologize if that wasn't enough. I don't really feel too comfortable with details about rape myself, though in a debate like this I don't mind bringing up a topic like this, not in detail. As I mentioned in the first post, it's something that I went through in high school and it badly scarred me, I still get random flashbacks of it and hate anything like it, hence some of my bias towards the subject. I understand people's sensitivity towards it. If anyone feels this isn't enough, please contact the admins. The last thing I honestly want is any huge problems. I will post a NSFW warning on the title. Sorry... :/ I think I'll also post a spoiler tag request for details like before. Thanks Lawrence for bringing this up.

    One of the reasons it's not brought up as much as it should, in ANY case/gender is how the victim feels afterwards. Whether it's embarrassment or the fact that was somehow their fault. It took me years to admit how far it went and I still barely mention what happened and avoid why and how. And the guy was a boyfriend, I can't imagine what it's like for a superior officer.

    I know, and I openly admit: I go in this with a bias, and I go in with a sensitive side on the issue that makes me look at it a different way. I do agree with the fact that women have done a ton of military actions on their own in history. I see my point as not fully wrong, do I still think women shouldn't be trapped in a sub in close quarters with a bunch of men who won't see another female for 18 months? Yes, but that's because I would see it in any situation an easy way for someone to get attacked, be it male or female. Hence I thought they should be in control of their own subs just for that reason. I do see the justice system in the military very screwed up right now and needs to be handed to someone else when it comes to a military officer and their actions.

    Actually, I recently saw a video about how a treaty was signed where an independent court was made to handle all war crimes. Be it a country on a winning or losing side, this happened after WWII and the atrocities that happened during that time. I.E.: The Holocaust amongst others, including Japan's actions and the U.S., in this jurisdiction, the U.S. would NOT be holding trial over the crimes that their soldiers do during war. If they signed it, which they refused to. In layman's terms: If the U.S. lost a war, they'd have to hand over whoever caused war crimes to the winner. Since they win every war, or retreat, they are responsible for their own military dealings and can and will do trials for their own soldiers without outside interference. I think that's what it is.
     
  9. Patman Bof

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    Or maybe men are just raised to pretend they' d enjoy it. I' ve had to deal with very direct women and it wasn' t necessarilly a pleasant experience. But maybe that' s just me. Besides, rape isn' t necessarilly heterosexual.

    There might also be a bit of cultural difference, I' ve had lots of female friends who weren' t exactly prude.

    There' s also the fact that rape is a ***** to prosecute. Unless you undergo a medical exam right after the facts it' s a my word versus his/her word scenario. Problem is reasonable doubt is a big thing in court.
     
  10. Sara Tea Drinker

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    Add that to it's usually very invasive to do a medical exam of this type a lot of women/men don't want to do such a thing. I'm not saying all, but it's something after such a situation causes a lot of trauma.

    And yes, there are men who end up being raped too, but maybe it's different cultures, maybe it's something else. It seems in the U.S. at least a lot of women end up as victims, A lot of women have it happen, a lot of women get kidnapped for men to use. I won't even go into the underage statistic. There are exceptions, at least once a year, most likely more you hear of a female teacher having sex with a student. But it's an exception than a standard, maybe you just look at it differently than others, not saying that's wrong, just offering a thought.

    I know growing up a lot of women, including myself, are taught how to protect yourselves from men. How it's not your fault, how you never did anything to have it happen. I remember my mom was always brutally honest with me in the subject, she always made it an open door policy to discuss things with her and allowed me to watch shows about what could happen. Maybe America sets it up that way, maybe it's how the men and women go out as a mindset. But it seems at least in my eyes, men seem to have a tendency to lean towards it more than women. In any situation, when you put men in power over women, be it military, police, etc... It seems to get worse. Would it be the same way the other way around? Maybe... Maybe not.
     
  11. Misty gimme kiss

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    Trigger warning for rape / sexual assault, probably goes without saying in this thread but all the same.




    The problem with comparing statistics about male rape versus female rape is that those statistics are rarely indicators of what is actually going on. Far too many rapes go unreported (the survivor does not want to 'create problems,' there is a social stigma attached to admitting you've been raped, tests & investigations can be very invasive, it is difficult to convict for it at times, etc etc.) for both sexes. To me, it's not a pissing contest about who gets raped more or less. I think it is important to discuss rape collectively and on a more specific basis of course, but it's rather annoying when an article about women in the military getting raped crops up and a bunch of people storm into the comments saying "WELL WHAT ABOUT MEN!? WE GET RAPED TOO." We know. We're not denying that. In fact, a lot of the work in women-centric groups against rape and sexual assault actively addresses how it affects men too.
    http://jezebel.com/no-i-will-not-take-the-mens-rights-movement-seriously-1532799085
    The thing is, feminism is about gender in our society, not just women.

    All this said, I do believe that rape & sexual assault within the military should be handled the same as civilian rape & assault. It doesn't matter where you are, who you are, what your job is... if you do not consent to sex, it is rape. Of course, I also believe that we do not handle rape very well within society either, so there's room for improvement there too. But to exclude women from certain social spheres or occupations because there is a danger of rape and sexual assault is a part of rape culture. Instead of making people avoid being raped, we need to be addressing why people rape and how to stop people from raping. Safety precautions are all well and good, but I'd rather make rules against the rapist(s) rather than against the (potential) victims.
     
  12. Plums Wakanda Forever

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    Obviously, same here as well.


    Agreed. I do find it taxing to see people hop in with "WHAT ABOUT [MEN/WOMEN]" in something that is specifically in regards to one of the two sexes. There's a more appropriate way of doing it that opens up discussion, but that only comes off as complaining.

    On the statistics being crappy at conveying what's actually going on, they are also very wrongly categorized in some cases. I discussed it more in depth in an earlier thread, but basically rape, as seen by the US government, is held as "forced penetration" which obviously skews things towards most perpetrators being male, while being made to penetrate is simply sexual abuse, when non-consenting sex in general should be classified as rape.

    I kind of disagree here. I think feminism has definitely grown to become more about gender equality in society, but there are some feminists who do make the environment of feminism uncomfortable for men, other woman, and so on/so forth. It is the reason why I don't mind the men's right movement, egalitarian movements and whatever else is out there.

    Civil rights for Black Americans in the past also had similar divisions, notably King's perspective of nonviolence and Malcolm X's very staunch attitude on white people vs black people up until a few years before his assassination. I believe people should be able to have the rigth to different sects of equality if they're working in a way that is not counter-productive to the overall end goal in sight. Clash between groups is inevitable, but I don't think people should be forced onto or told that one specific path is the sole right way while another as something to not be taken seriously at all (Which, although I'm skimming the article rn I see some things said about the MRM that I do have some heavy qualms with & can bring up if you wanna discuss this further).

    If people want to identify as feminist, men's rights activist, egalitarian, any, or neither, I think they should be free to do so. As long as they are working towards the goal of gender equality and equality between the sexes and righting the socio-econimic, political plights women face and the judiciary issues men face, I don't see the problem in one label over another, especially if they're made to feel unwanted or lesser in one of the certain groups.

    Also agreed.
     
  13. Patman Bof

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    I didn' t mean to make it a pissing contest if that' s how you guys took my first post. I know Sara didn' t mean to, but her OP does make it sound like a one sided issue. At least that' s how it came off to me.

    Anyway, I just wanted to underline that the military career attracts power play freaks regardless of their gender, which I suspect is a biggest factor when it comes to rape in the army than any kind of gender role blanket statement I could make.

    I stumbled upon this vid, I' m not sure those testimonies are representative but I thought it was worth posting :
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  14. Peace and War Bianca, you minx!

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    I realised I probably didn't address this case at all. I apologise. Alright, here we go.

    Criminal charges in the military should be handled by military police and investigators.
    The cases of crimes within the military are hard enough to investigate for the military rather than get civilians involved. A lot of these cases involve international travel between war affected areas or bases around the globe, wherever witnesses serve or the crimes have taken place. Civilian investigators would have to go through training and receive allowance to visit and investigate in military compounds for example, stuff that military investigators already have in place. Not to mention the military group mind set and classifications in place. Not many personnel willing talk about matters that a civilian investigator wouldn't be seen as being sympathetic to them. Many military investigators have served in the military or come from such families, which military personnel would be more inclined to respect and talk to. It's that sense of trust and sympathy that military investigators have over civvies.

    What should change is the mentality of rape by the investigative force, their procedure and also the amount of female military investigators employed needs to increase. Civilian investigators use female employees more so to deal with rape cases of women because they are perceived as more motherly and caring, easier to talk to. It's a smart way to use your resources which the military police force don't have as much access to.

    Mentioning equality quick, i'm trying to make the point that men and women are both criminals and victims. It's not one or the other, not all women are victims, not all men are criminals. Individuals are. The whole topic of rape needs to be addressed since everyone is a victim to them, not just men or women.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  15. Patman Bof

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    So apparently the bill mentioned in the OP passed but ... turns out it' s a smoke screen.

    Same scenario as for the latest gun control bill, the initial bill was voted down so they wrote a new draft. Problem is it' s been stripped down so much it' s essentially useless now, a mere pretence of doing something.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  16. Shuhbooty moon child

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    This. All of this. Rape happens everywhere and it happens to anyone. Age, race, and all other factors really gonunnoticed. It takes courage to stand up to a rapist and honor to address it from a powerful standing. But I feel like not all cases are pure rape. Women in the military might use they're bodies to get where they want. And then when people start asking questions they just make it as an excuse. It the military didn't shun most of the world standings out, and actually have more security within itself maybe we couldn't be talking about this. Just my thoughts.
     
  17. Patman Bof

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    So, I saw two writers on TV discussing their book about rape in the French army (which is the most feminized army in the world). Apparently that problem ignores borders. They only gave the German statistics : 55% of the women and 15% of the men interviewed admitted having been submitted to sexual violence (ranging from snide remarks to outright rape).

    Keep in mind though that humiliation in general is institutionalized in the army. From what those writers heard forced shaving of dicks as a rite of passage is still very much a thing here. I think we can safely assume there' s not a single person in the army that hasn' t been humiliated in some shape or form.

    Unfortunately, French politicians ignore that problem every bit as much as in the US. Everyone seems to take for granted that it' s just an intrinsic part of the army.

    Sweden would be the exception. They had a real political will to crack that problem and they managed to significantly curve their numbers down in three years and a half.
     
  18. Sara Tea Drinker

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    Interesting fact that probably means diddlyshit in this thread: Sweden the last I heard is run by women, the majority of people in the government are women. Don't quote me on that, it's been about a decade since I heard that and I might be wrong on the country.

    But it's interesting to hear about how other countries are handling this.
     
  19. Menos Grande Kingdom Keeper

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    More than Israel? I've always thought Israel had more female, not to mention all of them doing Krav maga
     
  20. Patman Bof

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    A bit of googling tells me it' s actually the most feminized of all the occidental countries, my bad. There' s no draft here, you have to volunteer. The people born the same year as me were the first generation who didn' t have to enlist, it was anounced shortly before I was supposed to enroll and I cannot tell you how thrilled I was to hear that. ^^

    Anyway, there' s 15% of women in the French military. Israël has a mandatory draft for everyone so they' re closer to 50/50 (and yet I saw it described as one of the most feminized army in the world, not the most).