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That is totally what is to blame. :(

I am assigning someone the duty of telling me to go to bed at decent hours on the weekdays until I am done with school. I just...don't get why I feel compelled to be dragged into another bout of it. lol It's like an addiction. ICSP is evil, I say!

Now to wonder how many times I will fall asleep in classes.

I didn't say the Org was evil before. Just they did bad things. Any way, yes, I had better be good and skedaddle too because I have to leave in a few hours. Sleep well! Whee.

To object, you must supply proper evidence to counter that claim. :p And yes, you are evil. The Org isn't. You are. I have so many tests for school and essay reports etc...and you keep making me stay up so late. It's almost 5 am here. lol BAD ICSP. NO DONUT.

Next week should be the last of it. I'm in college so we tend to get out a bit earlier I think.

Okay, so millions of people suffered because they wanted to explore Darkness in people's Hearts? Come on, ICSP. Mengele wanted to test out how twins were so similar and did horrible experiments on them. Is he justified? After all, we ended up with more genetic evidence about twins and also some medicines and learned you shouldn't sew up two people together cuz it doesn't work. Ishi did experiments to find out how frostbite effected people on live people and this was justified? He froze people's limbs and broke them off in front of them. This was to help make gear for soldiers supposedly and to defend against freezing temperatures. I'm having trouble here seeing how the Org is so right.

The point is you don't need a motive to say whether they are Justified or not. You need a motive to decide their fate after to judge the severity of the crimes. If a motive can be supplied that is more than just a selfish basis, then truly they won't look as bad, will they? However, will they still have done horrible things to a great many people? Yes. So obviously something had to be done. Sora wasn't hasty. They were. The whole ideal of experimenting was foolish. The moves to continue doing so and taking over the Nobodies, doing their plans to use Roxas and then switching to Sora were rotten. Sora is a 15 year old kid. You keep saying 'poor Organization' but really why isn't it 'Poor Sora' because he was the one boned, dragged in to this crap and had to deal with crimes from 10 years prior, as did Riku and King Mickey. One 15 year old kid wasn't the bully of the big bad ass Organization.

The evidence of the events themselves is more than enough to say they were not justified. It is now the actual complete motive we wait for to judge how much sympathy, lenience and tolerance any Judge etc would have for them. They did wrong. Axel knew that. Namine knew that. Roxas knew that. It doesn't make them evil, but it surely did not make them good either. We have dictator rulers that used excuses to kill off millions of people and people don't consider them good guys either. Some did just want their Hearts back. Others wanted more and that is clearly obvious. For what reason...that's what we are waiting for.

And DF, you just rux. I don't mind -this- thread being here but I do get annoyed when it goes across to every other thread about Sora.

The point is that the top Org members created the problem in the first place of the Heartless being out of control and manifesting themselves. Maleficent stepped in but this was after Xehanort had unleashed the Heartless into interspace and also gave her a way to the world by unlocking that world to allow outsiders. Ansem the Wise had also had to abandon things and Maleficent stepped in for the coup de grace. She however decided to use the Heartless after for her own personal gain because they were there and numerous. She had Darkness in her own Heart so it was easy for her to have connection with the odd creatures and as Saix said, if your will is powerful enough you can control them, when he had his bid for power versus her over who had control over what. Maleficent wasn't as cool as she assumed she was and was outclassed by the Org.

Are the Org responsible for it, yes. Xemnas totally knew Ansem the Wise and also still called him a fool and that he was right. He had no caring or remorse for unleashing the Heartless and also causing all the harm he had. They cannot be 'justified' with their actions because of HOW they went about them. They still are responsible for the actions the apprentices and Xehanort did before as somebodies too. They all remember it and tortured live people, and in bringing the Heartless there, they also created the Nobodies and then assumed control over them to use as they saw fit. Note, they also captured the other members of the Org too.

However, does it mean that they were not trying to do something to defend against something worse once they became Nobodies? This I do not know yet and no one does but Nomura. The point is though that you keep saying it's just a few people that suffered but you are mistaken. Millions suffered for it. Every Nobody there is caused by the spread of Heartless Xehanort initiated and the Heartless that continue to move about are also Xemnas's and the Org's responsibility. They became Maleficent's as well when she decided to get her grubby paws in there, but it was clear she was not as powerful or nearly the threat that the Org were.

Now, despite having said this, I still do empathize with the Org. Especially ones like Axel or Demyx who seemed to have just been sucked in to the scenario. I even feel sympathy for the upper members of the Org because some of them may just have not realized how bad things would become or how it feels to lose something till it's gone. So no, I am absolutely not an Org hater. I am also not saying they were 'evil' but they did do some pretty bad things and when you say it's just a few people...I have to disagree with you. It was a lot of people that suffered and still will because even with the Nobodies temporarily dealt with, so long as there are Heartless, the Nobodies will probably also continue to go on. I'm sure if the Nobodies knew of how they were created and had actual feelings, they wouldn't have been so complacent.

There is -nothing- that says the Heartless were doing damage prior to Xehanort in the mass way they turned up. Again, I didn't say the Heartless and Darkness didn't exist. I said they weren't a problem so bad as with what Xehanort and the other 5 initiated. Let's look at the Ansem Reports. Every single Heartless though that is an Emblem Heartless is derived from originally Xehanort's machine. There were more of them even than the regular pureblood Heartless like Shadows and Neo Shadows, Darkballs etc.

Now, here's Xehanort writing about Darkness...

Oops, here we go showing that Xehanort's little experiments of caused whoever he was experimenting on ...the heart to collapse. No treatment would cure it and he locked up those he had experimented on and came back to find...Pureblood Heartless. Shadows. Obviously he has no clue what they are so it's also obvious to ascertain that while Heartless existed, they did not come over out of Darkness unless motivated and it is Xehanort and his apprentice friends who brought them to Radiant Gardens.

So much are they new to this realm outside of Darkness he names them Heartless as he has never seen them before.

And he keeps giving them more people to make more Heartless with and they are multiplying as he continues to examine them.

And there's Xehanort opening the door to the world of Radiant Gardens after following the Heartless to it. Now, he ended up basically opening the world to other worlds and interspace which is why King Mickey visits and also Gummi Blocks were what was falling from the sky there.

So basically he's learning here they want the Heart of worlds as well as the Hearts of people to thrive on as an instinctive drive. #7 Just describes Gummi Blocks and that he feels that they are all prisoners to the world.

And here's him working on Emblem Heartless and marking them is putting his red symbol on them all he created with his machine.

King Mickey tells him and Ansem the Wise about the Keyblade and other worlds...soooo...

So here he sends off Kairi hoping she will find the Keyblade wielder so that he doesn't get in his way. It also states that the world's wall is collapsing with the appearance of the Heartless.

So the point is the Heartless and Darkness existed prior but not in this way that Xehanort brought them about with his 5 other assistants, tormenting people, then the Shadows appeared...he took these and experimented on them, making a machine you can see in KH at the Worlds End, and these he marked, sending them out. The Nobodies also made Heartless bearing the same symbols such as the Heartless dragon, the Heartless in Beast's Castle, and the one Luxord made in Port Royal at least.

Okay, you are missing the point. Xehanort BROUGHT the Heartless to Radiant Gardens. In Darkness, where they are from, they were not a harm to the system because that's where they belong. Eating things and devouring stuff in Darkness isn't bad because that is what Darkness does. Heartless (Pureblood any way) are manifestations OF Darkness. So Xehanort pulling them to Radiant Gardens and experimenting as he describes in the Ansem Reports is what transpired. Yes, they existed prior but no, they were not a problem before Xehanort did what he did.

So in the end, Xehanort and the other 5 apprentices are still responsible for unleashing the Heartless, making Emblem Heartless and scattering them throughout interspace. Also, Xehanort IS the one who watched a Heartless lead him to a door and then he opened it, which was the door to Radiant Gardens. So, really, are you now trying to say that just because the Heartless existed prior and weren't a problem that Xehanort/Xemnas is not responsible for the incident when clearly his own reports through the identity of Ansem shows it is the case?

Time seems to progress forward to me but not loop back. Some patterns arise that seem like circles though as events transpire over a series of time that seem to duplicate in a way. I'm not really sure I believe in time circles though. Even the idea of reincarnation which a soul can go from an old form to a new one may seem circular but is actually progressive and forward so even on the spiritual level it doesn't seem to work right to me.

Riku casually looked upwards, admiring the ceiling tiles as Namine looked back at him. Yeah, he wasn't staring at her chest. No way. If he had a coat he would have offered it to her but unfortunately that wasn't the case.

Repliku looked at Zack and the mysterious munny from nowhere. It was too bad that the pirate guy was getting it. He could have bought some sea salt ice cream to find out what all the hubbub about it was. "Another plan foiled."

I don't know if we'll be seeing Axel as his somebody or not but it was confirmed by Nomura and also in the KH2 Novel. Namine states that Axel returned to his Somebody so he was not truly gone. There's nothing saying though that he will return or that he would even remember his time as a Nobody. It would be interesting if he did though.

I agree. I love the cut scenes so it doesn't seem like such a con to me. I can't wait for this game.

You do realize that the 6 responsible are Xehanort (Xemnas) and the top other 5 apprentices to Ansem the Wise. They brought the Heartless there. Xehanort opened the door to Radiant Gardens' Heart and let the Heartless take the world. He also is the one who kidnapped Kairi and sent her out to find the Keyblade Master. They brought the Heartless there. They also reportedly experimented on individuals in the lower depths of the castle which Ansem the Wise tried to stop. Then they threw themselves into Darkness. Ansem couldn't save his world and also ended up going to Darkness, hence becoming DiZ. It's not like DiZ had NO reason for revenge, you know.

Now, since Xehanort and his buddies let through the Heartless, they also made a machine which could mass produce various Heartless called Emblem Heartless. These were of all sorts of shapes etc but with Xehanort's Heartless emblem on them, which seems to be a symbol similar to the Knight symbol that Terra wears, just skewed. So, yes, they did bring about the Heartless. When Ansem tried to stop them, Xehanort sent all of the Heartless out to various worlds through innerspace. Not Maleficent. Xehanort.

So, now you have Xemnas and the top 5 other Org members with this past behind them. DiZ also has to live with it and is bent on revenge when he realizes he can do nothing for his world and his name was stolen by his beloved pupil.

The Heartless in Darkness are not bad. The Heartless on worlds with life, that is bad. Xehanort pulled them there so the Org again, since Xemnas does know what he had done and has done -nothing- to fix that, is wrong. Sora had to fix his mistake, fight Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) and deal with the Organization coup at Castle Oblivion. Xemnas also faced Sora in a surprise test in KH at the end. Now, there is the point I am making. They kicked all of this off and Xemnas knew all he did and still claims the power of Darkness is superior to DiZ and he knows everything and surpasses the old man. He's not repentant at all.

So he started the trolley. The Heartless being everywhere was spurned on by him and Maleficent showed up after and decided to manipulate some of them. Xehanort's Heartless does his thing and takes over Riku, which again, Xemnas obviously didn't care about. The Org were using Heartless and these were harming and making more Heartless. In the end, the Org just never stopped causing problems, whether the goals switched or not. Sora acted as he could. He wasn't perfect but he's a 15 year old boy versus all of these people who are against him and forcing him and others to do things against their wills with no explanation.

P.S. Here we go again. :)

Dude, they harmed more people than just a few. Sora had to fight as it was and had they been honest there wouldn't have been a trolley, would there have been? That is the point. They first off put themselves in the position, so then you have 6 members who started up the trolley gong for thousands of people...then they hop out, take charge of those people after they are wounded, and then the trolley keeps going on into another bunch of people who are oblivious to what is going on. Your analysis fails here because the top members of the Org did this to themselves and yet also expected to run the show and use a pseudo Kingdom Hearts and the Keyblade wielders to get what they wanted. They weren't out to just 'help' people. They were out to help themselves. They already had put all those Nobodies there in the first place. It's not like they cared but for their own motivations. Marluxia didn't care either. He just wanted the power. He was more a menace than Xemnas was.

In the end, the Org top 6 started the trolley well before they were going and making new Heartless, causing turmoil and forcing Sora to do their will. Sora would have never been involved had they not forced him into it. Just because a few may die for the many, or whatever, doesn't mean if they don't EXPLAIN themselves, they are any more right.

In the same way she never calls them 'good guys' either and she actually has to stand against them. Also, she and Kairi both faced off against Saix and for being 'good guys' as you profess, she's got her dukes up and when Riku shows up she says what? "Go get him, Riku!"...If they are so good and she thinks so, why is she having Riku go after Saix? She sympathized with them because she also wanted to be real but it is apparent that their way of doing so was not in her desires as she gained a conscience in CoM. She couldn't afford to be as selfish as they were.

Saix makes it clear that he remembers his Heart and that he knows how to HURT a Heart. He did each thing he did to push Sora and also he did seem to enjoy watching him and Kairi's reactions to see how they felt as he brought them pain. That is what a sadist is. He got enjoyment out of being cruel and watching them struggle with it. No one else would sit there and make someone get on their knees BEGGING for the return of someone, chuckle about it and brush it off. Whether he has emotions himself, all of the Nobodies seemed to be empathic to a degree. Larxene was directly called a Sadist by Nomura and others. She did get enjoyment and it is clear that Saix also got enjoyment by watching others suffer. He pretty much says that he has the power to do it and he does so.

No, he was a jerk all along. You have this thing about saying that the Org became crueler after Demyx's death but Demyx was not that important to them. The only ones that seemed to even 'like' Demyx were Axel and Namine. Saix could not care for any of them. He had his goals and he was pretty much closer to Xemnas than any of the other Org at the time, to include Xigbar who is #2. Saix was, along with Xaldin, possibly the most ruthless of all of the remaining Org that weren't at Castle Oblivion. Show me anywhere that he was a 'good guy'. He was a smooth operator and manipulator.

So Sora saving people means he's trying to save those lives. The Nobodies could have done things a different way which was established. It's not Sora's fault, or those others who were attacked by the Org that the Nobodies exist. It is by their own hands that the Org exists. The top 6 members did this to themselves and others suffer for it. Why should people who have nothing to do with it die, become Heartless, get cursed etc? It is not irrelevant in the least. It is the reason Sora fought. It's the Org's fault for not coming out and saying anything honest but instead playing mind games. He did what he had to in order to save people. Just because the Org doesn't value life outside of their own existences doesn't mean Sora won't.

I am not calling the Org evil. However, the point is that they were not good either. They were wrong with how they went about things and this is why I'm telling you it is CLEAR that Namine and King Mickey, Riku and even Yen Sid did not call them evil. However, their schemes were imbalanced and a danger to those who had no idea about things. Innocent lives were taken, harmed etc, in this plan. Sora, not being let in on it, as also Yen Sid wasn't, King Mickey had to investigate as did Riku, etc...no one was calling them evil, including Sora. However, just sitting there and letting them do some massive plan while in fact using Sora...I'm sorry...who's going to sit and just be manipulated like that? They were not in the right. Yes, they had some plan and it may have been for something like fighting off the hidden boss of KH3 that will be shown in Coded...perhaps. But perhaps not. We do not know. In either case, again, do you go about stealing people's livers while they are alive because you need one? Anyone with a conscience would try to stop them and they NEVER came forward and asked for help or tried to be amiable to Sora in any way. Saix was -using- him and feeding off the reactions. He was their spokesperson. Anyone would not trust a word they said after Saix.

Harvey blanched as now his precious coffee was a part of Zack's attire. "Oh man!.." He then caught the money there and went over to it. "Ah hah! Well I hope you don't mind donating some of this to a good cause." He picked up the money and scrounged through it, picking out some gold pieces and went over to Jack. He put the gold pieces on the stand. "There. Now let's hear this testimony! While I acquire another cup of coffee!" Avenger groaned and flew out the door, soon returning with a new cup of coffee, sloshing some of it out along the flight but hey, it was better than -no- coffee.

Riku glanced over at Roxas. He then looked at Namine. She really wasn't wearing a bra...then again he had to figure she wasn't since it seemed to be just a petticoat. "On the better part of valor, I think I won't say a thing." Yeah, that was smart to do since Roxas had been justly slapped for it.

Sora of course was oblivious. "I do have to agree. You smell bad, Roxas. Go get cleaned up before you get in trouble."

Falling asleep in Health Class is like a mandatory thing at least once. The movies are soOoo boring. Did you like the movie?

lol Psychotic Canine. That just rux.