Gay Marriage

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by jiisan813, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Sufris Twilight Town Denizen

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    I'm just gonna put this out here, and the whole thread was honestly too long for me, so I don't know if this has already been said.

    For one thing, I'm not familiar with the laws regarding gay marriage, even in my country, but I believe that homosexuals deserve the right in this day and age, mostly because of the benefits marriage has. The Law shouldn't dictate what the Church should do; I honestly believe that there should be a clear line between those two. But then again, that's just coming from a teenager who knows close to nothing about law when it comes to these controversial things, so I'm not sure if there being a clear line between the two will have any negative repercussions.

    As for the religion part... This is my look on it. Homosexual acts are a sin. That's what all my teachers and what even the nuns in my school say; this was what I was taught to believe and would like to tell other Christians like myself too. I'm assuming it's because since, from what I've been taught, sex is supposedly an act of unity (was it? There was another term for that) and procreation. Since two people of the same sex can't exactly procreate, that eliminates one reason for sex being acceptable as an act in the Bible. Since they can't exactly unite either as we really weren't built that way no matter how you look at it, that eliminates the other reason, making the act itself totally out of lust.

    That being said, we all know, or maybe just most, that lust is one of the capital sins. I'm not sure if this is really the reason, but I'd like to think it so, in all honesty.

    'Course, I'm just putting this out here. I mean, I'm not saying I look down on homosexuals who like doing intimate things with their beloved partners, I'm just saying this to clear things up. It's love, after all. If you ask for my own opinion, I'm totally neutral. I'll support homosexuals, but for equality. I respect those who want a gay marriage.

    Sorry it's lengthy. Hope it's not TL;DR.
     
  2. Mako Tsunami Kingdom Keeper

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    We've already gone over this. You are right in that marriage has evolved into a sort of tradition for our culture. This is a result of marriage being implemented into law for an enormous period of time (which it shouldn't have and is the root source of this whole debate).

    But this does not give us the right to trample over religious freedom. Yes, it's evolved over time, but it is a religious ceremony nonetheless, and you cannot disguise that fact by over-exaggerating its evolution. Just because something is there doesn't mean it has to be taken advantage of by everyone. Religion is a personal choice, not something everyone gets a membership card to by subscribing.

    This is entirely baseless. Why does this debate even exist then? Why is everyone constantly quoting the bible to defend the religious roots of marriage?

    Just because it is a part of your culture doesn't make it appropriate to abuse something. For example, if it was culturally acceptable to wear a gay pride badge and get free drinks at a bar, would you wear one even if you weren't gay? In my opinion, this is not acceptable. You are lying to obtain the benefits that only a certain group of people would obtain, and are spitting upon the foundation of that group. The same thing can be said with homosexuals and marriage.

    And finally:

    I agree wholeheartedly with this, which brings me back to my stand on simply creating a fundamentally equivalent version of marriage different only in name and religious origin.
     
  3. Boy Wonder Dark Phoenix in Training

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    How is this a case of religious freedom? This is more like oppression by religion, not on religion. No one is being told that they can't practice religion in whatever form. Those arguing for gay marriage are not trying to restrict anybody else's religious freedom, they're either trying to be free from religion (See: exercising their own religious freedom) or simply trying to marry within their religion, for those who are Christian and gay (See: Practicing religious freedom , at least depending on your interpretation of the Bible, but there's so many of those). If we're using the phrase "religious freedom," then we have to break it down on who's exercising their freedom and who's having their freedom oppressed.
    From the anti-gay marriage side: I can't see any freedom being "trampled" on here. EVERY single thing that you can legally do now in regards to religion, you'll still be able to if same-sex marriage gets legalized.
    From the pro-gay marriage side: This is where I see freedom being "trampled" on: the freedom to marry, obviously, but the religious freedom, as well. People are allowed to be free from religion and using religion as the basis to restrict someone from their civil rights is backwards, immoral, and highly theocratic (which America isn't).
    As they say, "my freedom to throw a punch ends at another man's nose."


    The first part of this can be said about those opposing gay marriage as well. You're abusing religious freedom. I agree that because something is part of your culture, it doesn't mean it can be abused, but allowing more legal adults with legal standing to marry each other isn't abusing it. Allowing people to marry and divorce repeatedly, have affairs, go to Vegas and get married drunk, etc. is abusing it (A common "liberal" argument is that the supporters of DOMA aren't really known for keeping marriage sacred).


    Regardless of whether or not marriage originated in the Bible (which I consider to be complete bullshit. It's not a history book, it's a story book), I don't see that as a reason to either support or oppose gay marriage. Are we not allowed to adopt something that doesn't have any negative effects on anyone, aside from people disagreeing with it, from another source into our legal system, society, or cultures?

    As a side note: if Christianity is right or true (or any other religion for that matter), we still can't use that as a basis for opposing gay marriage in the United States. America is not a Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Satanic, Zeus-worshipping, or religious of any kind nation. Despite popular belief, the Founding Fathers were not Christian, at least not as a singular group. America is not found on Christian principles, it was found on religious freedom. You're free to practice your religion, but everyone else is free to practice theirs or practice none with one main rule: you can't trample on anyone else's freedom.
     
  4. Chevalier Crystal Princess

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    If so, then why not only reclaim marriage as something religion exclusive? Why let it be used by the state in the first place? Why then not opt to have anything to do with state in the first place? (no need to answer this. I realize how deep rooted traditions can be, ect. Just placing it out there) if religious people want to have say in why gay marrige should not be allowed, it should be only when it is religion exclusive.


    Oh, umm. Derp. Context. I meant that most people aren't obsessing like "omg we're getting married? Is god alright with this!? Is the bible okay with our union?" unless it's, of course, the controversial same sex/trans marriages. Should have elaborated that better. Lol.

    I just can't really follow the similitude at all because of the questions that itself raises. But I'll just try and work with the point you're trying to make, because I sort of understand it ;3

    Basically, you cannot give religious people better benefits for being a certain religion (where the state is concerned) Specially when marriage and gay marriage would, on the most basic level, be the same thing (when barring its religious connotations). Which brings us to the below:


    I could be wrong, but isn't this why there's marriages by the state and church marriages? They do have the same name, but one signifies the approval of god, and the other is basically just the legal thing.

    I mean, at this point I don't see how people could just rip the term "marriage" out of the legal process. But it could work. In the end, if the church wants to reclaim the term, then they should just pose that instead of trying to cockblock people from entering a legal union.
     
  5. venster You never heard of me, but I pop in time to time

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    Ok, I know plenty of people who aren't religious, yet they still do the ceremony of marriage. Hell, I know I'm going to do a wedding when I'm married and I'm Agnostic. Weddings have become more than just a religious ceremony nowadays. They're more of a tradition and so embedded in to the legal system that it can't just be exclusive to christians/catholics/etc. I bet you in all of those countries where christian beliefs are a minor religion, all of them do some sort of ceremony similar, if not exactly, to marriage. So marriage cannot really be just a oath under God to be with someone forever.
     
  6. Styx That's me inside your head.

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    @ staff: I tried to be nice. I really did. I must have rewritten each sentence about three times to remove most of the viciousness I was originally going to let loose...
    ...But come on, cut me some slack here.

    And I'm sure your school was full of objective observers.

    Emotional unity is also a form of unity.

    I have good news for you then: you don't have to have sex to procreate, so you do not have to indulge in lustful acts anymore. Have fun with your test tube babies and your perpetual virginity.

    We weren't built to fly either. Are you against tools that help us fly? I suppose you must be then.

    It wouldn't hurt to ask yourself why it is a sin exactly.

    ===

    Anyway, if "Bible huggers" (I don't see why people who base their opinions on the Bible should feel offended) want to monopolize the term marriage, let them. As long as the law provides an equivalent statute for homosexuals and atheists with equal rights and whatnot, I don't care. We can call it egairram for the lulz. It is still disappointing that this is even an issue though.
     
  7. Always Dance Chaser

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    Uh, actually, I haven't ignored that, I've been talking about it for the entire thread if you'd go back and read.
    To repeat myself, marriage should not be involved in the state at all, I find that stupid. Marriage is both in religious and state interests, and that's where the problem is.

    I guess I should have made this clear just in case I haven't been: I do not believe it is right to deny gay people the rights and privileges that marriage gives. But I also do not believe it is right to change the rules of our religion to give that to them. Again, it should be like in California where you can get a domestic partnership to get the exact same rights as marriage.
    What, and I automatically have to be okay with that? If it became a cultural thing to burn Bibles, should I just accept it because that's culture now? No, I have my beliefs and no amount of culture is going to change it.
    I agree with you on the first point, but would reverse your last one: a legally binding contract by the state should not be tied to a religious institution like marriage.
     
  8. phoenixkh93 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Thing is though, I'm a Christian and all but this is one of the issues I have with the whole 'gay people can't have sex' thing. If you have two straight people getting married, yet for some reason they can't ever have kids (one of them is infertile for instance), there would be no question as to them being allowed to have sex. Yet as soon as it's two gay people, suddenly this becomes an issue. Sure Christianity teaches that sex is for procreation but it also teaches that sex is an act of love, unity and joy for a couple to share.
     
  9. Patman Bof

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    True. I might as well point out that churches have happily married infertile couples for centuries.

    Agreed.

    Most Christians cherrypick which of the Bible moral guidelines are the real deal anyway. They kinda have to : if read literally the Bible is a horrible, horrible book, telling people it' s OK to stone babies to death, to own slaves and beat them up, to rape a woman so that you can force her to marry you regardless of her feelings, etc etc ... and to top it all the one who supposedly judge us all in the end is a divine mafia godfather, more concerned about whether we rimmed him good or not than about how harmful our behavior might have been.

    But I digress, point is everyone should establish their own moral guidelines and keep questioning their validity (on logical standards), unless of course they don' t realize how gullible it would be to accept being spoon-fed X or Y' s moral guidelines without question, or unless being gullible makes them happy (it' s still harmful, but at least it' s their choice).

    I was thinking the same thing, until I recently stumbled upon an argument against it : no matter which word you pick if its meaning is "marriage for gay people" then it justs won' t fly. It would be condescending, it would contribute to single gay people out (you are a sinner and you know it, "son", lol). When the church suddenly realized it was unfair to not let black people marry they still called it marriage, why would gay marriage need its own special word then ? <-- that was a rhetorical question, I should immediately add that the "because being gay is a sin" answer just doesn' t fly. Let' s just call a cat a cat and a marriage a marriage, m' kay ?
     
  10. phoenixkh93 Gummi Ship Junkie

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    Being Christian I tend to follow the New testament mostly. Old Testament...well yeah what your paragraph says. Also Jesus pretty much was sent to clear things up for us moral-wise from what the OT taught anyways. You know 'forgiveness instead of an eye for an eye' and all that. If I'm dubious about a certain moral decision and 'Treat everyone as you would wish to be treated' doesn't cut it, I try to think objectively of a situation and really get a feel of what I think is right. Might be a bit off topic but my point is nobody can really establish their own moral guidelines, they will ALWAYS be dictated by society and the morals of those around them. Which is why I try to stick to the base guidelines of 'Love one another' and stuff. You can't really go far wrong there.
    And about 'rimming God good' as opposed to how good our behaviour is, God DOES actually judge us on our behaviour, according to Jesus. Whether you believe in God or not, it is taught 'whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do to me'. So basically, treat others good, treat God good. That's how he'll judge you. You seem to be treating Christianity as if, you know, Christ never happened. That's kinda the whole point of it. That's why they were so annoyed at Jesus back in the day, he uprooted all the old teachings and spread these new revolutionary ones around.
     
  11. Styx That's me inside your head.

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    I think that, if explained correctly just why the distinction is made, not only gay people would yrram. If one was associated with religion and the other wasn't but were otherwise identical, I as an atheist would choose egairram over marriage any day. If enough people would do it, I don't think the homosexual community would feel to singled out. It should be presented as a non-religious equivalent of marriage, not as a gay equivalent.

    Hadn't thought of that. Good point.

    Like I said: it saddens me that this is even an issue for some.
     
  12. Sufris Twilight Town Denizen

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    It's just how I like to view things. How I'd like to think is it doesn't exactly extend to the more innocent things, like hugs and kisses or whatever. Unless you were talking about something else.

    Technically, yes, it actually is full of objective observers. But there are lesbians here and there. Somewhat including myself.

    Admittedly, I'm ignorant of these things, and I honestly did not know that. But you should ask the more religious people with a better knowledge on that than I do if you really want to. My own religion has many holes in it I'm trying to fill, so sorry...

    You're right, we don't. And you know what? It's someone's choice whether they want it or not.


    Haha, no. I love airplanes, even if I get air sick. I'm just saying that we weren't built that way.


    I did, a lot. And let me be honest with you, there's a lot of holes in my religion I can't ignore. This is one of them. However, lust is the desire, right? Overwhelming sexual desire. This is only justified when one is married, according to what I was told and what I just read (>.>;;). Which leads us back to the whole gay marriage question. But don't look at me for that. I already said my stance on that is, they should have.

    The Church (from what I know) says: "Homosexuals shouldn't have sex and whatnot."

    I say: "If you guys wanna go at it, then go. :D"

    ^Just in case I didn't make myself clear (I'm starting to feel I didn't... ;.;).




    Before I go on, I suck at debating. Anyways, from what I also read, lust in general is justified after marriage so long as it's to your partner, because you obviously love said partner. As I just said... This whole thing leads back to gays not being able to get married.

    Bottom line; issue is pointless, gays should be allowed marriage especially in this day and age, I'm not ignorant to the loopholes in my religion. Then again, what do I know, right? Right. But is it okay that we keep this from being too much of a debate on religion? I'll cut it out too. .w.;;
     
  13. KeybladeSpirit [ENvTuber] [pngTuber]

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    I'd just like to get in here and mention that as far as the Bible goes, it says that, "A man shall not lie with a man as with a woman," or something to that effect. What strikes me as interesting is that it doesn't seem so much like a law as a statement of fact. It is impossible for a man "to lie with a man as with a woman" because the "parts" aren't there. So those of you who claim the Bible says no to homosexuality, it doesn't say that at all. It just says that it won't happen.

    That said, I'm not against homosexual marriage, but I don't see why anyone should have to be for it either. It's no concern of mine, so I'm not going to worry about it. If I ever happen to have a gay friend (and I already have a really cool transgender friend) who wants to marry the man/woman of his/her dreams, I'd stand up for him/her in a heartbeat.
     
  14. Patman Bof

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    I didn' t know Captain Obvious was that old ! ^^
    You seem to interpret your own quote as if it said "can not" rather than "shall not", does "shall not" have an old/obscure meaning I' m unaware of ?

    Anyway, all the quotes I found don' t leave much room for interpretation :
    http://bible.cc/leviticus/18-22.htm
    http://bible.cc/leviticus/20-13.htm
     
  15. Miles Cull a Duty 2 : Electric Boogaloo

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    I guess its un-natural because you can't reproduce.
     
  16. jafar custom title

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    People should be for it because an unmarried couple does not get the same benefits as a married couple. When filing their taxes, they have to file single or head of household. They cannot file as married filing jointly, which actually prevents them from receiving a larger tax return. If a person is hospitalized, his or her partner cannot join them in the ER or anything because they are not married or related, which is emotionally devastating, especially if they have been together for years and cannot support their loved one in the hospital. There's more, but I cannot think of any at the moment. The point is, they do not get the same rights as every other human being in the United States. It is a civil rights issue. Would you have said the same thing about the black civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's? That it is no concern of yours? It is unfair to deny all human beings the same rights simply because of sexual preference and it is a battle we all have to fight because if you can deny some people their rights, what's stopping denying most or all people their rights?

    Just read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
     
  17. FallenHeartless Merlin's Housekeeper

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    I think the people who object against gay marriage are desrispectful,
    in what world are you not allowed to marry someone you love even if they are of the same gender!!
    im completely for Gay Marraige as it is normal and with someone they love <3
    Gay people may say that it is unnormal for two people of the opposite sex to be married in the same way that some people say that to people of the same gender is wrong!
    either way, it doesnt matter if therer is gay marriage or not as it is with someone they love and you should respect that!
     
  18. Riku-Sama's Shadow Hollow Bastion Committee

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    People should chill out about this.
    Gay marriage should be permitted.
    If you don't like it or don't want your kids to think its okay, then simply raise them that way. Don't expect them to stay that way though.

    It doesn't affect people...like at all. Maybe some confusion in kids, but the answer is still simple. They love each other, and unlike most people, they either don't mind the gender or are attracted to their own.

    I know gay Christians who are straying from that path of Christianity because of unfair treatment.
    Gay doesn't mean evil. It just means you're different from the majority of humanity.

    If you are gay, please don't feel bad. There is hope.

    <3
     
  19. Tootsie coquí

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    In cases where a friend/family member/ or any other person who asks me about my views on gay marriage/ gay couples I always give them the same answer:
    "If they love each then why the hell not?"
    It's still love in my eyes and love wins above all else (I went super Disney on you guys but it's the damn truth).
     
  20. Noroz I Wish Happiness Always Be With You

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    I have already posted this, and I've made myself clear before. But due to the bump it got, I'll say it again.

    It should be legal.

    Marriage is not a religious thing anymore, I would say. Why do many people (mainly women) look forward to their wedding? Because they will be united with their love under God? Fuck no! They are excited because they get to dress up, get their will the entire day (lol), have a party where they are the center of attention. If you don't think that way, you are in the minority.

    There is a quite a good quote regarding gay marriage (which I just call marriage, because that's what it is, the unity of two people loving each other) that I think I should post for the people still against it;

    If you are against gay marriage, don't have one.